The Arizona Shooting and American Political Discourse

[Flake]

Criminals who intend to use these guns to commit crimes aren't likely to be trying to buy them legally.

Except for the fact that this particular lunatic DID buy his gun legally.

[Limewater]

And Limewater I remember a lot of warnings outside every amusement ride, even for the most "tame" ones, so I find it strange that a facility offering any activity that might involve even the smallest amount of danger, wouldn't try to have its ass covered someway, to avoid lawsuits.

Oh, warning signs are everywhere, but nobody ever asks you to actually provide evidence that you are in good health. I don't have to carry around a doctor's note to be allowed to ride a roller coaster. You said that you do if you want to go swimming. That's the distinction that I said most Americans would probably find silly.

Well in the mental record thing, I was thinking more of needing a permission from a doctor saying you are mentally stable enough to own a gun and not the state actually having mental records on everyone. And if one doctor is crap you can always go to another doctor to get a second opinion.

Most MDs are not qualified to make these diagnoses. As shocking as it may be to y'all in Europe, the vast majority of Americans do not suffer from severe mental illness. The guy who shot those people likely suffers from schizophrenia. I'm not an expert on the subject, though I do have relatives on both sides of my family who who have or did have forms of it. As I understand it, it doesn't even really present itself strongly until sometime in the twenties. JT would probably know better, but I wouldn't be surprised if this guy could have passed a psychological screening a couple of years ago.

For every freedom people have, there are going to be bad consequences. Drinking is legal? People drink and drive, or get drunk and stab each other. Smoking is legal? People smoke too much and get sick. Driving is legal? People are careless or have accidents, killing others. Peacefully assembling for political protest is legal? People get carried away and beat the crap out of each other. Having sex is legal? People get abortions or drop off their babies in garbage cans or beat their kids. Choosing one's own religion is legal? Folks join cults and engage in church-sanctioned sexual abuse, torture, etc.

We'd really better crack down on all of these things, don't you agree?

[ZeroAX]

Ok I think my partaking in this discussion is over.

[Limewater]

Ok I think my partaking in this discussion is over.

I'm sorry to hear that. Why?

[MrPopo]

Well, the main theory behind our system of government is that we elect representatives to speak for our voice in congress. The only way they know what we want is for us to tell them, whether it come from surveys or direct letters to our representative.

It's true that they can't know what you want if you don't tell them, but it just seems so farfetched to think that they will act upon something just because you told them to. Not only that, but Public Choice economics pretty much assures that it is impossible for a single person to get their way with the government (assuming that they are pushing for a "good" government, which is a public, as opposed to a private, good).

Well, there's two things that would theoritically happen when you contact you representative. The first is that the representative would note that a citizen has concern A, and if he starts to hear the same concern from other citizens then it's worth him pursuing. The other is that he hears a new idea that intruiges him, so he kicks off the necessary study or polling.

And Limewater I remember a lot of warnings outside every amusement ride, even for the most "tame" ones, so I find it strange that a facility offering any activity that might involve even the smallest amount of danger, wouldn't try to have its ass covered someway, to avoid lawsuits.

Think of it this way. Let's say someone drinks and drives and runs someone down. Should the car dealer be sued for selling the car to someone who might drink and drive (no priors)? How about the store that sold him the alcohol? Our main view is that you shouldn't punish the tool manufacturer/seller when their tool is used improperly. I can go stab someone with a kitchen knife, should I need to get a psych evaluation before purchasing those?

[ZeroAX]

Yeah MrPopo, but the car and the kitchen knife have other manufacturing purposes. What is a gun's use other than being used to kill people? Well ok it's self defense, but is the ease with which someone can obtain a gun making things better or worse? I don't know, we need statistics on this topic.

Plus I don't think a gun which fires 31 rounds before needing to reload was build for anything else than killing a lot of people. There's no way you'll need 31 shots in a case of self defense.

[dsheinem]

What is a gun's use other than being used to kill people?

Target shooting, hunting, collecting...

[ZeroAX]

Target shooting, hunting, collecting...

Rent a gun at a target range, collect video games, and dude no one hunts with a handgun. That's what rifles are for. Heck just sell rifles for self defense as well imo. You can't sneak a rifle anywhere, so these gatherings become safer, and you still have a way to defend yourself if anyone enters your house with a gun.

[Limewater]

Rent a gun at a target range, collect video games, and dude no one hunts with a handgun.

Sure they do. It happens quite regularly. Granted, most handguns are not hunting guns.

That's what rifles are for. Heck just sell rifles for self defense as well imo.
You can't sneak a rifle anywhere, so these gatherings become safer, and you still have a way to defend yourself if anyone enters your house with a gun.

Rifles are generally inferior for home defense due to being awkward and difficult to maneuver in close quarters. They also pack a lot more heat than handguns, meaning that a stray shot can more easily go through walls and into other people's homes.

The increased accuracy and power of rifles over handguns has actually led to things like minimum length requirements.

[dsheinem]

Target shooting, hunting, collecting...

Rent a gun at a target range, collect video games, and dude no one hunts with a handgun. That's what rifles are for. Heck just sell rifles for self defense as well imo. You can't sneak a rifle anywhere, so these gatherings become safer, and you still have a way to defend yourself if anyone enters your house with a gun.

What if I want to target shoot in my back yard (I have no neighbors nearby)? Yes, you can hunt with a handgun at certain times and in certain places (http://www.handgunhunt.com/index.php). And why should the government tell me I can't collect interesting guns if I have no criminal history?

Look, I am all for rigorous handgun legislation that requires proper checks, waiting limits, bans on certain military grade weapons, etc. But the basic idea of being able to own a handgun or rifle for self defense, sport, or as a hobby is and should be a protected right.