Do you believe in god?

[MrPopo]

Let me briefly illustrate a few examples of the evidence of Intelligent Design: The clock-work precision design and workings of the Universe and the Earth itself, which operates in a very precise and meticulous manner could not have happened by chance; The Earth's location relative to the sun and our exact position in the Milky Way Galaxy; The fine-tuned Earth with all the laws and processes of nature highly inter-dependent on each other to enable life to exist; Even the moon has a major role to play for life to work on Earth; The Earth's exact proximity to the Sun (if the Earth were only a few thousand kilometers closer or farther from the Sun, life would not have been possible);

I had to yoink out this piece because of the massive fallacy displayed. Lots of creationists like to cite the fact that the Earth is in such a fantastic location for life as proof that it was placed there. They don't understand how big numbers work. There are between 30 and 70 sextillion observable stars (thus the total number is much bigger), and our solar system has 9 planets (Pluto is a planet dammit!). So just a quick estimate says it is likely there are at least a quintillion planets (and I wouldn't be shocked for there to be more). Therefore, it becomes highly likely that at least one planet is in the configuration that the Earth is. This also happens to be the proper conditions for life as we know it to exist. It's no different than the lottery. Your chances of winning are small, but eventually someone does win. We got lucky and won the cosmological lottery.

[jp1]

@ Jreece and Octopod, I never made any mention of of atheists not having morals or having inferior morals to Christians in any way. You guys need to go back and reread my posts. I asked how you felt about morals and what you believed about them.

Pointing out that Christians can do immoral things isn't relevant I never made such an argument that they don't.

Again, you assume we have to understand why we do what we do, or that we have to have a purpose that we understand in order to be moral or live life without confusion.

I don't assume that at all. I am asking how you feel about those things so as not to assume.

Your suggesting that just because we don't understand the reasoning behind our actions, that we should no longer engage in them.

I'm not suggesting anything dude, I'm asking questions.

Yet when was the last time you stoned a homosexual, killed a nonbeliever, or sold a family member into sexual slavery?

It's been at least a week.

These values weren't built from christianity. Christianity was built on values we already had. It's kind of like someone making a clone of super mario bros, and then someone trying to say it's actually a clone of Great Giana Sisters.

So you will blame Christianity for influencing laws that you don't like but you don't credit them for any of the laws you agree with? It sounds like you aren't keeping an open mind yourself.

It's just part of us. We don't need to be able to explain it, because we can feel it in the choices we make every day.

That's fine but why all the defensiveness when I ask how you feel about it? I do need explanations for those things but I'm not trying to convince you of anything.


It is a pretty tough sell for me that you guys (not all of you) are the ones having trouble by being discriminated against or whatever when I am asking you honest questions about your views on things out of genuine interest and trying to understand how you feel and you come off as defensive and unapproachable. You are all reading into my questions things that aren't there. I am not at all belittling you or trying to prove my superiority but it feels like your disdain for Christianity doesn't let you move past that.

Oh well, I'll leave you alone. I just wanted to try and get some insight into your beliefs.

[dsheinem]

I'd argue that both sides in this argument are just as bad. On the one hand, you have the zealous religious types who have nothing better to do than attempt to convert me, or worse, think that some sort of afterlife and eternal love of a deity will allow them to get away with whatever they want.

On the other hand, you have a group of angry reactionaries who feel they have the moral high ground to do whatever they want by not having a moral high ground, or worse decide to enter such a rebellious state that they must make a mockery of whatever set rules they can, demeaning and insulting not just religion but nearly everything else.

Frankly, both of these extremes suck.

And then you have the religious types that don't force it on you and the atheists who are secure in their beliefs and just want to be left to their endeavors. I like these people, they think what they want and leave others to be free to think what they want. And while they might have individual beliefs that might not mesh with mine, they're not going to take the opportunity to hit me over the head and rub my face in it if it ever comes up.

I grew up in the Deep South, where you see both types hit their extremes: Religion, especially Christianity is quite profound and has made an effect on our daily life even in the way we talk (though I don't attend church or really feel a connection to Christianity, you'll hear me exclaim Lord, Jesus Christ, God damn it, mother of God, and quite a few others). I don't consider this particularly demeaning, more just a habit of speech down here. But we do get the massive churches (Baptists love them), religious mail asking us to go to church, random bibles handed out by Gideons from time to time, so on and so forth. That stuff doesn't really bother me, I realize it's there way of being nice, and I accept it and move on.

Then again, we get the massive anti-abortion rallies with all the gory pictures, which I've never felt necessary, we sometimes have people try to convert us (my brother once spent an hour with a lady reading out of a bible to him in a random book store because he'd asked her where they kept the tarot cards), and we do see signs like the one on I-65 telling us to go to church or the devil will get us.

At the same time, certain elements of the atheists have become so reactionary in response that you can set them off at the drop of a hat, and they'll go about demeaning whatever they feel like it if it's in any way related. Conversations with these people are nigh impossible, and avoiding them more so as they feel the need to shout their beliefs and parade their opposition to the norm any opportunity they can. Being as it's a university, this sometimes translated into having to listen to a professor lecture as he repeatedly bashed the beliefs of some of the students. It might have bothered me less if there had been a reason, but some of them just sort of launched into it of their own accord, and I disliked them for forcing their own beliefs down on me.

The lesson? Both sides have crappy elements within their ranks, but I don't feel either side's all bad. Let's just try to live and let live.

Nice post. I agree with this almost 100%.

[AppleQueso]

It is a pretty tough sell for me that you guys (not all of you) are the ones having trouble by being discriminated against or whatever when I am asking you honest questions about your views on things out of genuine interest and trying to understand how you feel and you come off as defensive and unapproachable. You are all reading into my questions things that aren't there. I am not at all belittling you or trying to prove my superiority but it feels like your disdain for Christianity doesn't let you move past that.

This is precisely because just about every person out there that does decide to ask these questions has an underlying agenda. Not that I'm saying that YOU have an agenda, but keep this in mind.

[jp1]

I have ZERO interest in converting anyone or their beliefs. I was curious about the way the world looks through the eyes of someone else with different beliefs than I. That is all.

[Jrecee]

@ Jreece and Octopod, I never made any mention of of atheists not having morals or having inferior morals to Christians in any way. You guys need to go back and reread my posts. I asked how you felt about morals and what you believed about them.

I know you didn't. Your question was just in terms where my answer came out as defensive.

Pointing out that Christians can do immoral things isn't relevant I never made such an argument that they don't.

Did I bring that up?

Again, you assume we have to understand why we do what we do, or that we have to have a purpose that we understand in order to be moral or live life without confusion.

I don't assume that at all. I am asking how you feel about those things so as not to assume.

Again, my answer was in the terms that what your wondering is also an assumption that many people make.

Your suggesting that just because we don't understand the reasoning behind our actions, that we should no longer engage in them.

I'm not suggesting anything dude, I'm asking questions.

Again. It was just the way I responded. The fact that your asking these questions makes me assume you don't know the answers to them. I guess I just took the step of assuming you had filled in your assumed answer.

These values weren't built from christianity. Christianity was built on values we already had. It's kind of like someone making a clone of super mario bros, and then someone trying to say it's actually a clone of Great Giana Sisters.

So you will blame Christianity for influencing laws that you don't like but you don't credit them for any of the laws you agree with? It sounds like you aren't keeping an open mind yourself.

Our basic moral code, as I've said, isn't completely understood. Maybe there was a time when raping and killing was acceptable. Although even modern day primates look down on killing. Even in modern human terms, we accept killing in certain circumstances.

Someone had to set these laws initially. And they had to get them from somewhere. Is it possible that the people who wrote them were corrupt horny old men who both agreed that "killing thy neighbor is bad" and "selling your daughter to me is ok"?

I can only go by the moral code that I, and modern societies have. Within these societies, hurting someone else is bad. Therefore I'm agree with it if those elements of christianity. My point is just that we have a moral compass with or without the bible. There are civilized societies all over the world, many of which grew alongside completely different religions than christianity. The basic principles of love thy neighbor, don't steal, etc. are built on earlier religious concepts, which were in turn built on empathy that is present in every human being. These concepts were than adapted by certain groups or individuals, modified, reworded, or combined with other less appealing concepts like slavery.

It's just part of us. We don't need to be able to explain it, because we can feel it in the choices we make every day.

That's fine but why all the defensiveness when I ask how you feel about it? I do need explanations for those things but I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

It is a pretty tough sell for me that you guys (not all of you) are the ones having trouble by being discriminated against or whatever when I am asking you honest questions about your views on things out of genuine interest and trying to understand how you feel and you come off as defensive and unapproachable. You are all reading into my questions things that aren't there. I am not at all belittling you or trying to prove my superiority but it feels like your disdain for Christianity doesn't let you move past that.

Oh well, I'll leave you alone. I just wanted to try and get some insight into your beliefs.

You've been assuming from the beginning that we're going to be defensive. I'm just having a debate and I've yet to be offended by any of your questions, and I don't think anyone else is offended either.

[Jrecee]

Let me briefly illustrate a few examples of the evidence of Intelligent Design: The clock-work precision design and workings of the Universe and the Earth itself, which operates in a very precise and meticulous manner could not have happened by chance; The Earth's location relative to the sun and our exact position in the Milky Way Galaxy; The fine-tuned Earth with all the laws and processes of nature highly inter-dependent on each other to enable life to exist; Even the moon has a major role to play for life to work on Earth; The Earth's exact proximity to the Sun (if the Earth were only a few thousand kilometers closer or farther from the Sun, life would not have been possible);

I had to yoink out this piece because of the massive fallacy displayed. Lots of creationists like to cite the fact that the Earth is in such a fantastic location for life as proof that it was placed there. They don't understand how big numbers work. There are between 30 and 70 sextillion observable stars (thus the total number is much bigger), and our solar system has 9 planets (Pluto is a planet dammit!). So just a quick estimate says it is likely there are at least a quintillion planets (and I wouldn't be shocked for there to be more). Therefore, it becomes highly likely that at least one planet is in the configuration that the Earth is. This also happens to be the proper conditions for life as we know it to exist. It's no different than the lottery. Your chances of winning are small, but eventually someone does win. We got lucky and won the cosmological lottery.

Oh I wasn't even going to get started on that guy. His entire post is a massive falacy.

[MrPopo]

I have ZERO interest in converting anyone or their beliefs. I was curious about the way the world looks through the eyes of someone else with different beliefs than I. That is all.

It occurs to me my answer to this question was somewhat dry, and lacking in personal experience. So let me give another answer.

When I interact with people I usually treat them nicely. For people I don't know that's mostly due to the fact that I've found that if you treat people nicely they tend to treat you nicely back. For people I do know I've found that when I help someone out I feel good about it. Plus, there's some reciprocity. If I help someone out with something out of my way I find it's not too difficult to have them help me out with something similar.

Then there's things like the laws of society. I find that I follow the ones I agree with and don't follow the ones I disagree with and am likely to not get caught at. For example, when I'm sitting at a green light with a red left turn arrow and I can see that I can safely make the turn I do so (where safely includes checking for cops).

My entire goal as I go through life is to be left alone, and I extend the same courtesy to others. I don't mean that I'm a social hermit (though that is true as well), what I mean is that I'll avoid inconveniencing you and I expect the same in turn.

[MrPopo]

Let me briefly illustrate a few examples of the evidence of Intelligent Design: The clock-work precision design and workings of the Universe and the Earth itself, which operates in a very precise and meticulous manner could not have happened by chance; The Earth's location relative to the sun and our exact position in the Milky Way Galaxy; The fine-tuned Earth with all the laws and processes of nature highly inter-dependent on each other to enable life to exist; Even the moon has a major role to play for life to work on Earth; The Earth's exact proximity to the Sun (if the Earth were only a few thousand kilometers closer or farther from the Sun, life would not have been possible);

I had to yoink out this piece because of the massive fallacy displayed. Lots of creationists like to cite the fact that the Earth is in such a fantastic location for life as proof that it was placed there. They don't understand how big numbers work. There are between 30 and 70 sextillion observable stars (thus the total number is much bigger), and our solar system has 9 planets (Pluto is a planet dammit!). So just a quick estimate says it is likely there are at least a quintillion planets (and I wouldn't be shocked for there to be more). Therefore, it becomes highly likely that at least one planet is in the configuration that the Earth is. This also happens to be the proper conditions for life as we know it to exist. It's no different than the lottery. Your chances of winning are small, but eventually someone does win. We got lucky and won the cosmological lottery.

Oh I wasn't even going to get started on that guy. His entire post is a massive falacy.

I know, but that's the one that's easiest to point out. There's also the whole "we can't figure out how this happened, so it must be God" theme running through his essay, which always entertains me. Arbitrarily throwing up your hands like that is not the way to get science done.

[Octopod]

When I interact with people I usually treat them nicely. For people I don't know that's mostly due to the fact that I've found that if you treat people nicely they tend to treat you nicely back. For people I do know I've found that when I help someone out I feel good about it. Plus, there's some reciprocity. If I help someone out with something out of my way I find it's not too difficult to have them help me out with something similar.

This is kind of interesting.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism