Mosques

[Limewater]

The fact that now he is backpedaling from that statement a little bit really gets me angry...but the fact that both parties are refusing to stand up for their fucking principles is the goddamn final straw. If either party gave a FUCK about the Constitution and the freedoms it makes CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR then they wouldn't be "barely containing their frustration" over how Obama's stance hurts their political positioning but shouting their approval about the right for Muslims to legally build a mosque wherever they damn well please even louder than the president has. What a fucking disgrace.

This shit makes me soooo angry.


*seethes*

Since we've been disagreeing a lot lately, I figured it would be worth noting our common ground.

[saturnfan]

The Mosque that is being planned to be built near Ground Zero is incredibly distasteful and inappropriate. The nature of its proposal seems disingenuous because its supporters know that Ground Zero is a sacred landmark for many American's and they wish to use it as a pulpit for racial politics to continue to divide us on myriad of politically convenient issues of race, culture and religion.

The proposal has naturally attracted the attention of some of society's lesser desirable people, ones who probably are to some degree less enthusiastic about other races and cultures to put it nicely. While these people do not represent the feelings and attitudes of the vast majority of people who are against the building of the Mosque at Ground Zero it only takes one of them to carry an unscrupulous sign or say a recorded racial comment to get the media or the left to brand the entire opposition movement as racially motivated.

With that accomplished, it is then easy to once again paint those who are in favor of common sense and common decency to be morally bankrupt and thoroughly repugnant people. The object has then come full circle: propose something ridiculous, wait for the inevitable opposition, turn it into a civil rights issue, create fear amongst our ethnic minorities, and win their votes by using divisive and socially harmful tactics.

Legally, there is nothing to bar the building of the Mosque that I am aware of. However, as you can tell by my post I am not buying the argument that this is aimed at bridge building or wound healing. This is race politics at its worst.

[dsheinem]

The Mosque that is being planned to be built near Ground Zero is incredibly distasteful and inappropriate. The nature of its proposal seems disingenuous because its supporters know that Ground Zero is a sacred landmark for many American's and they wish to use it as a pulpit for racial politics to continue to divide us on myriad of politically convenient issues of race, culture and religion.

It is being built over an old Burlington Coat Factory, 2 blocks from GZ.

There is a mosque 4 blocks from GZ.

American Muslims died in the Twin Towers.

It only became about "racial politics" when the right-wing media started getting hopped up about it. When the building was proposed before the local board, it passed with ease. If the people who live there don't have a problem with it, why should the rest of us?

Sorry, but I don't see a single thing that the supporters of the mosque have done wrong. The vocal opposition, on the other hand, is engaging in fear mongering and racism....

While these people do not represent the feelings and attitudes of the vast majority of people who are against the building of the Mosque at Ground Zero it only takes one of them to carry an unscrupulous sign or say a recorded racial comment to get the media or the left to brand the entire opposition movement as racially motivated.

I wish I could agree with this - I just don't see any rational arguemt coming from this "silent majority" that doesn't boil down to fear/distrust of Islam.

you can tell by my post I am not buying the argument that this is aimed at bridge building or wound healing. This is race politics at its worst.

Wait, so you think they want to build the mosque/center to provoke racial uproar? Do you have any legitimate evidence to support this claim?

[saturnfan]

The people who live there don't disagree with it?

NYC voters oppose it 52% to 31%

America as a whole opposes it over 70%

Here is a CNN pole:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailyp ... ns-op.html

You see no rational arguments from the opposition? You see nothing distasteful about a Mosque being built near a site where Islamic terrorists murdered several thousand people? The opposition isn't to Mosques or Islam, it is mostly about the location that should be protected.

However, if you look at that CNN link, it is not completely a left v. right issue considering that a majority of those on the left find it distasteful as well.

[dsheinem]

The people who live there don't disagree with it?

NYC voters oppose it 52% to 31%

America as a whole opposes it over 70%

Fuck their poll. I wasn't referring to NYC as a whole. I was referring to the specific neighborhood that already voted to approve the center.

You see nothing distasteful about a Mosque being built near a site where Islamic terrorists murdered several thousand people?

No. Because when I think of those murderers I first think "terrorists" and "radicals" not "Muslims."

Do you know what is distasteful? The more this fear-mongering goes on the more I am convinced that the terrorists were absolutely successful in their aims.

You know what else is a disgrace? This is the first time in 9 years that I've heard of anything being built in the area. Leaving that gaping hole is no way to honor the memory of those who died. I'm glad some of my fellow Americans are looking to start revitalizing the area.

The opposition isn't to Mosques or Islam, it is mostly about the location that should be protected.

B.S. The "location" is not at Ground Zero, it is at an old Burlington Coat factory. How far away is ok? Three blocks? There's already a mosque four blocks away. Is that ok? There is so much "un-sacred" stuff in the blocks around Ground Zero - adult stores, strip clubs, etc. that the whole "it is not about Islam" argument is so vapid.

Fuck this whole topic pisses me off. There is no justifiable moral or legal opposition to the mosque. If America as a whole thinks otherwise, than that only confirms my view that we are easily fucking manipulated and/or just plain stupid as a country.

[saturnfan]

Such a rich response, so full of insight and wisdom that I feel as if I am talking to a true visionary. I am in complete agreement with you that there is no real legal opposition to the construction of such a building, but I find it rather sad you wish to ignore the victims for politically correct sentiments.

I could go on about some of the more hilariously ridiculous things you have stated but I will let your agitation rest.

[Octopod]

Coming from someone with a Stonewall Jackson avatar your feelings on the matter come as little surprise.

[vash23n]

Such a rich response, so full of insight and wisdom that I feel as if I am talking to a true visionary. I am in complete agreement with you that there is no real legal opposition to the construction of such a building, but I find it rather sad you wish to ignore the victims for politically correct sentiments.

I could go on about some of the more hilariously ridiculous things you have stated but I will let your agitation rest.

I have to agree with what he's saying though. They are not building it on the site of one of the towers (would still be legal). It's like 3 blocks away. Should there be a restriction on the building of a mosque? Should anyone who wants to build a mosque have to build it in NJ? There are plenty of people who probably oppose the building of mosques no matter where they are. This just happens to be a highly publicized case. There are also plenty of Muslim families who lost loved ones on September 11 and who are just as sensitive about the grounds as the non-Muslims are. Why are we spitting in the face of all Muslims? They are not building a terrorist shrine where Burlington Coat Factory used to be - that might make it a more sensitive issue as it would truly be a building dedicated to those who murdered all of those people. This is a mosque, however, and it is a place of worship for those who practice Islam. These people who also suffered on September 11 at the hand of terrorists - not Muslims. It is legal and morally a non-issue.

[Jrecee]

Look, as an atheist, which I'm sure is clear in the earlier part of this topic, I really don't like any religion. I personally think we'd be better off with no churches/synagogues/mosques/religious megaplexed anywhere. My opinion of islam as a religion is about equal with christianity, but islam is the more pressing threat, because it is the religion of politically backwards countries, and it is currently the religion behind most of the danger that we face in the world.

And yet even though I'd like religion to disappear, I can see no reason that this mosque shouldn't be built. An argument I see a lot on this topic is that allowing them to build the mosque is an example of "typical liberal civil rights abuse" where a minority gets their way only because they're a minority and the evil spineless liberals support them for that. The usual argument is that a minority is just too easily offended and we have to tiptoe around them so as not to offend. I think this is just white people doing the exact same thing.

A major problem with nearly every argument I see against the mosque is simple stereotyping. What if they wanted to build a christian church right next to an abortion clinic where a doctor was murdered? Are people going to go and complain that it's offensive just because one christian committed a murder? How about any place where a person was murdered by a jew is now sacred ground, and a synagogue can't be built within 2 miles or whatever BS distance the offended pull out of their asses as acceptable.

[vash23n]

What if they wanted to build a christian church right next to an abortion clinic where a doctor was murdered? Are people going to go and complain that it's offensive just because one christian committed a murder? How about any place where a person was murdered by a jew is now sacred ground, and a synagogue can't be built within 2 miles or whatever BS distance the offended pull out of their asses as acceptable.

I agree with this. I am glad you gave some examples because I was trying to think of some... like the domestic terrorist who blew up the Oklahoma building, but I didn't feel like putting too much effort into it considering where this thread seems to be heading.

EDIT: I do have an example. I am not exactly fond of these idiot protesters who stand outside of soldiers' funerals loudly proclaiming that soldiers being killed is God's punishment for homosexuality, that AIDs is God's cure for sexuality. A ban on these types of protests was just thrown out by a federal judge in Missouri out of fear that it infringes on these idiots' right to free speech. I think a poll would reveal that most Americans disagree with these people and the way the disrespect the deceased and the families of the deceased. Unfortunately, in a country that swears to uphold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, freedom of speech wins out over dignity in this case. So, regardless of how you feel, the constitutional right to freedom of religion must win out in the case of building the mosque, right? How is it right to pick and choose - should a group of innocent Muslims who will most likely never hurt anyone be refused their right to build a place of worship and practice their religion while a group of radical Christians are allowed to orchestrate and participate in acts that directly cause severe emotional pain?