Arizona law takes effect thursday

[MrPopo]

Please note I've not yet presented a personal viewpoint on the subject of illegal immigrants. I merely am working from a starting point that we have immigration laws and the populace seems to want to enforce said laws and am analyzing how best to enforce those laws for maximum efficacy.

Also, if you're going to drag out a quote like that, I feel obligated to mention that the whole point of government is that you trade some amount of liberty for some amount of security, with the two in a general inverse balance.

To be honest, quoting Ben Franklin seemed like a better move than "Fuck Police efficiency. The words 'police' and efficiency' can't be used in the same sentence without massive irony." and I thought it said what I thought better than I could say it. I'd rather be in danger than have to present my papers or be subject to excessive unneeded searches just because of my color, race, or whatever.

The key phrase here is excessive unneeded searches. It was already mentioned that a state driver's license will be sufficient for the law and I sincerely hope you don't consider showing your driver's license to be a burden.

I guess I don't understand your opposition to profiling based on statistics. You clearly don't seem to think the police are very good at their job as it stands (and I'd love to see where that sentiment comes from) so why would you be against them trying to do a better job? It's not like they profile just for fun, or to keep the non-whites down. The data backs them up. Especially in the case of illegal immigrants in the State right next to the Mexican border. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that you DON'T think that the majority of illegal immigrants in Arizona are of Mexican descent?

[dedalusdedalus]

Your right to not be deprived of property without due process? Look up eminent domain.

With Eminent Domain you are compensated.

You're referring to the "Just Compensation" clause, which is limited by the Nuisance exception. If your property is considered a "nuisance" in the legal sense of the word, the gov't can condemn your property without paying you just compensation.

I'm a bit hazy on this, but I think the Nuisance exception has its roots in the govt's inherent "police power," relating to health, safety, morals, and welfare of the public.

But again, this just goes to show the tradeoff between rights/liberties and safety. If my property is a nuisance and threatens the safety of others, then gov't can curtail my property rights and condemn my property without just compensation.

[dedalusdedalus]

Here are some quotations juxtaposed with snippets of the AZ law ("SB 1070") I pulled from the site I linked. I think that a lot of the opposition voiced against this law on these forums is based on media distortion.

If I believed everything the news media told me about this law, I'd be strongly opposed to it. But if you read the law itself, it's much more reasonable than what's represented on news and opinion channels. As it stands, I don't care much about whether this law stands or not, but I wish people would be more reasonable when arguing about it.

From what I understand, the law allows (or requires, I can't remember) the police to ask...if they pull a person over.

"For any lawful contact stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official...
where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person"

The criticism is that the law can be too easily abused (like JReece has said), that Mexicans are going to be the only people targeted

A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection [NB: the word "solely" has been removed from later revisions]

and that keeping papers with you at all times is ridiculous. (Many have compared this to Nazi Germany.)

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

[Octopod]

Aren't we all already legally required to carry ID on us at all times?

[dsheinem]

At the end of the day this is an illegal law, and the suit being brought against Arizona by the federal govt. will bear this out and eliminate it.

States can't make their own immigration laws.

I have heard some pundits argue that the entire bill is more or less a publicity stunt designed to get the federal government to pay more attention to border security. In other words, the AZ legislature knows it's a sham law. I think I buy that to an extent, but it also seems to me that whenever I see the bill being backed by supporters they come across as bigots looking for a legal justification for their bigotry.

In any case, it is sad that this stunt is causing many legal immigrants to leave the state because they are nervous, feel scared to go outside, mistrust the police, etc.

[Ack]

As for locking this thread and not having threads that cover controversy: while I understand that not not encouraging (and possibly banning) these threads makes your life easier, I think we should have these threads. Having gamers talk about these issues in the same forum as the latest (or earliest) video games is a real credit to Racket Boy and separates it from the rest of the pack. I also think that if we are to have a mature gaming forum, we should be allowed opportunities to display controversial thoughts and ideals without resorting to flaming. (Kind of like how when kids are treated like brats, they act like brats.)

Maybe, but it's my job to make sure that these things don't devolve into meaningless drivel and insult wars, which ultimately hurts the community because it drives away members, prevents intelligent conversation, or stops potential members from joining. I know of at least one case in which a personal friend avoids this website based on certain threads that have come up and the arguments and statements they have devolved into.

Admittedly some of us have opinions that are decidedly combative, derisive, or insulting to other members of this community, and the natural habit of certain individuals on here is to put down other individuals or important aspects of their lives based on their own personal prejudices, whether they're doing it intentionally or not(and in some cases they come off just as bad as the people they're claiming opposition to).

Shoot, my own opinions have gotten me in trouble more than once, so now I try to stay out of these things. And I have to admit, sometimes I see you all say things that I really want to counter because they come off as offensive and idiotic to me, but I figure it wouldn't help benefit the conversation any and would just make the site look bad. So instead I ask questions to try to clarify my knowledge of the topic so I can form my own opinion based on what I feel is right.

[lisalover1]

Mostly they have involved inazuma but nobody takes him seriously anymore.

Where is Inazuma, anyway? I haven't seen him around here in a while. It would be entertaining to see Inazuma and Budsmoka get into a fight, but he isn't around anymore, either.

[Ack]

Actually Budsmoka was banned quite a while ago.

[Octopod]

Admittedly some of us have opinions that are decidedly combative, derisive, or insulting to other members of this community, and the natural habit of certain individuals on here is to put down other individuals or important aspects of their lives based on their own personal prejudices, whether they're doing it intentionally or not(and in some cases they come off just as bad as the people they're claiming opposition to).

Shoot, my own opinions have gotten me in trouble more than once, so now I try to stay out of these things. And I have to admit, sometimes I see you all say things that I really want to counter because they come off as offensive and idiotic to me, but I figure it wouldn't help benefit the conversation any and would just make the site look bad. So instead I ask questions to try to clarify my knowledge of the topic so I can form my own opinion based on what I feel is right.

I share your feelings on this pretty much, even though I may be one of the people you are referring to. From now on I am not joining discussions on this board that are not about video games, music or movies. If I want to talk about politics or religion I'll join a forum dedicated to that topic. I could do the same for music and movies but those are mostly harmless topics.

[dsheinem]

Admittedly some of us have opinions that are decidedly combative, derisive, or insulting to other members of this community, and the natural habit of certain individuals on here is to put down other individuals or important aspects of their lives based on their own personal prejudices, whether they're doing it intentionally or not(and in some cases they come off just as bad as the people they're claiming opposition to).

Shoot, my own opinions have gotten me in trouble more than once, so now I try to stay out of these things. And I have to admit, sometimes I see you all say things that I really want to counter because they come off as offensive and idiotic to me, but I figure it wouldn't help benefit the conversation any and would just make the site look bad. So instead I ask questions to try to clarify my knowledge of the topic so I can form my own opinion based on what I feel is right.

I share your feelings on this pretty much, even though I may be one of the people you are referring to. From now on I am not joining discussions on this board that are not about video games, music or movies. If I want to talk about politics or religion I'll join a forum dedicated to that topic. I could do the same for music and movies but those are mostly harmless topics.

I wish you'd stick around for these debates actually Octo. Like Ack, I've been in my fair share of them here and I appreciate those who offer reasoned/rational talking points which you usually do. And Ack, you really should jump in more often too. Part of the point of getting a non-game related sub forum was to be able to shoot the shit on politics, religion,and all those other topics that don't belong at the bar. If we can mostly keep gaming flamewars down, I see no reason why we couldn't do it here.