What Constitutes an RPG

[AppleQueso]

The fact that people do low-level runs of many rpgs proves that there is always chance.

[KillemallCFH]

I stand with Queso in statistical growth being necessary - and furthermore, experience points being necessary to be considered an RPG.

This definitely isn't true. Games like Saga Frontier and Final Fantasy 2, where you just gain stats/skills, don't have experience points or levels, but I'll be damned if someone tries telling me they're not RPGs. (Well, I guess you could count the weapon levels and points as experience in FF2, but Saga Frontier has nothing like that - you just gain skills and stats.)


And I know this discussion died down a couple of pages ago, but I just want to note that Metal Archives has Rush on it. Now, Rush is one of my favorite bands, and I love Metal Archives, but there is no way in hell I'd ever consider Rush a metal band. Metal Archives is certainly not an authority.

[AppleQueso]

I stand with Queso in statistical growth being necessary - and furthermore, experience points being necessary to be considered an RPG.

This definitely isn't true. Games like Saga Frontier and Final Fantasy 2, where you just gain stats/skills, don't have experience points or levels, but I'll be damned if someone tries telling me they're not RPGs. (Well, I guess you could count the weapon levels and points as experience in FF2, but Saga Frontier has nothing like that - you just gain skills and stats.)


And I know this discussion died down a couple of pages ago, but I just want to note that Metal Archives has Rush on it. Now, Rush is one of my favorite bands, and I love Metal Archives, but there is no way in hell I'd ever consider Rush a metal band. Metal Archives is certainly not an authority.

key words, "gain" "stats", that's statistical growth. Doing battles and equipping armor/weapons affects your statistics related to that character's performance. FF2 and SaGa Frontier both have statistical growth because over the game, the characters stats grow.

As for the second part:

From M-A's submission rules

Now... let us elaborate on certain things which are apparently controversial, ambiguous or unclear to some members.
- Mötley Crüe, Deep Purple, Rainbow and Rush are not considered metal by some. Understandable, as their music and heaviness varied and was debatable at times. But what they sometimes lacked in "metalness", they made for in historical importance, and they are there to stay. That doesn't mean we're going to accept any glam or hippie rock bands though, and they are about as "borderline" as we are going to have.

Flaky reasoning perhaps, but still. Besides, it's not like anyone used M-A as an authority anyhow, the poster who pointed it out and claimed it was an authority also disagreed with the site in the same post.

[KillemallCFH]

key words, "gain" "stats", that's statistical growth. Doing battles and equipping armor/weapons affects your statistics related to that character's performance. FF2 and SaGa Frontier both have statistical growth because over the game, the characters stats grow.

I know; I was commenting specifically on the7k saying that having experience points was a necessity. I agree with what you said of statistical growth.

As for the second part:

From M-A's submission rules

Now... let us elaborate on certain things which are apparently controversial, ambiguous or unclear to some members.
- Mötley Crüe, Deep Purple, Rainbow and Rush are not considered metal by some. Understandable, as their music and heaviness varied and was debatable at times. But what they sometimes lacked in "metalness", they made for in historical importance, and they are there to stay. That doesn't mean we're going to accept any glam or hippie rock bands though, and they are about as "borderline" as we are going to have.

Flaky reasoning perhaps, but still. Besides, it's not like anyone used M-A as an authority anyhow, the poster who pointed it out and claimed it was an authority also disagreed with the site in the same post.

Yeah, but having a band like Deep Purple while not having bands like Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, etc. is a bit inconsistent. Not that I really care - I'd rather they include as many 'borderline' bands as possible simple because I love the way the site is set up and often wish there was a site like it for rock bands.

[AppleQueso]

Yeah, but having a band like Deep Purple while not having bands like Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, etc. is a bit inconsistent. Not that I really care - I'd rather they include as many 'borderline' bands as possible simple because I love the way the site is set up and often wish there was a site like it for rock bands.

You and a million other people man. I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen people around the forums there say how great it would be to have a punk-archives, rock-archives, etc etc.

[ryanofcali]

Metal Archives is a den of favoritism, you could have two identical bands but only one gets in because its the admins favorite of the two, they will be the first to tell you they pay the bills they will put what they want no matter the truth.

[the7k]

This definitely isn't true. Games like Saga Frontier and Final Fantasy 2, where you just gain stats/skills, don't have experience points or levels, but I'll be damned if someone tries telling me they're not RPGs. (Well, I guess you could count the weapon levels and points as experience in FF2, but Saga Frontier has nothing like that - you just gain skills and stats.)

I have actually played one "RPG" that didn't have levels or experience points. Rather than EXP, you had money. You used that money to buy armor/weapons/accessories, that would increase your stats, give you extra abilities, etc.

In this way, Experience Points were still there - they were just a currency. Levels were still there - they were just your equipment. You still used them for the same purpose. I haven't played Saga Frontier (had it on good authority that I should avoid it, which is why I haven't played it) or Final Fantasy II (Well, I played a little of it, but didn't care for it nearly as much as either FF1 or FF3 and thus dropped it like a rock), so I don't know how they handled it - but I'd bet that there was still some substitute for experience points/levels in it.

There is sometimes NEVER any gratification in some rpgs, you beat the end boss and you get a stupid ending that ends up getting fixed for the re-release(Wow quite specific there)

I'm not saying that an RPG has to be GOOD to be an RPG. By God, if that were the case, I could count the amount of RPGs out there on my fingers. The point is that they at least TRY to do certain things. That there was a focus on them. If they fail at them, that's something else entirely.

I'm sure you've seen at least a few horror movies that failed to scare, or comedies that failed to delight. It's not the point that they failed, it's that they tried. An action movie with awful fight scenes and sophomoric choreography is still an action movie.

[yomomma1]

There is no way to by-pass the elements of an RPG in a true RPG. There is no instant gratification. Your reward is made all the sweeter by having you work for it - and if the developers did a good job, the work you put in was neither too little nor too much.

I have played a few rpgs that don't require lots of playtime to unlock most of everything.
What if there is no reward? You say there is.

[the7k]

I have played a few rpgs that don't require lots of playtime to unlock most of everything.
What if there is no reward? You say there is.

I'm not talking about unlockables. Not even slightly, almost, kinda talking about unlockables. They weren't even a part of what I was talking about.

Alright, take GTA. You can choose to play the story, get wrapped up in it and finally have that investment pay off when you complete the story... or you can just go on a murderous rampage, killing everybody you run across. No story to invest in, nothing of the sort - instant gratification.

In Call of Duty, you can choose to watch the cut-scenes, get invested in the characters - or you can skip the cut-scenes altogether and just shoot shit.

You can't really do this is an RPG. I've seen a few that allowed you to skip cut-scenes, but doing so your first time playing through would leave you so lost and confused, you'd be crippled. Moreover, the game would just lose any impact.

There is no instant gratification in an RPG. It's all a slow build-up that involves a great deal of investment on the part of the player - and it's because of this that RPGs are far more personal experiences.

[KillemallCFH]

In this way, Experience Points were still there - they were just a currency. Levels were still there - they were just your equipment. You still used them for the same purpose. I haven't played Saga Frontier (had it on good authority that I should avoid it, which is why I haven't played it) or Final Fantasy II (Well, I played a little of it, but didn't care for it nearly as much as either FF1 or FF3 and thus dropped it like a rock), so I don't know how they handled it - but I'd bet that there was still some substitute for experience points/levels in it.

Saga Frontier works as follows: You fight in battles, and depending on what you did in battle, you gain stat points. For instance, if you use magic in the battle, you have a chance of gaining stat point(s) in Magic. If you attack, you can gain Strength, etc. Final Fantasy II works pretty much the same way. In FF2, however, you gain what you could call "experience" points in whatever weapon or magic you're using, and you get levels in that weapon/magic. So you can make the case that there is experience there (though I'd still argue that that's fundamentally different than the traditional experience/leveling system). In Saga Frontier, however, there's really nothing. When you use a weapon or type of magic, you can gain skills for that weapon/magic type, but there's no experience points or levels in any way.

As a side note, I love Saga Frontier. I can see how someone might not like it, but I really suggest you at least try it before casting it aside.