To all the old school Sega fans

[Original_Name]

I'm sick of a legacy of great games and a relentless drive to innovate even at the company's own cost being shrugged off in favor of saying, "HEY, BUT FMV GAMES!!" and having an interesting market campaign. It may have made you frustrated, but it made me want a Sega Genesis (well, that and more specifically seeing a screenshot of Shinobi III's level 3 boss on the side of a Sega Genesis box).

Hell yes.

EXACTLY. How can you see that and not NEED to play it for yourself?

[goatlll]

I mean, if you want me to be honest -- the last thing people should be doing at this point is writing a book about how much they hated Sega for mostly-insignificant reasons

It's not about my hate of Sega, but the culture at the time. The race between Sega and Nintendo, and all the things that were going on behind closed doors and in the mind of gamers. I guess I should have been more clear on that. Since I was on the Nintendo side I wanted to see what Sega fans thought, is all. I was going to look at the marketing that Sega was using, the underhanded tricks by both companies and so on.

The fact that you can see the high quality of the Saturn releases (good on you for that!) but not find the charm in the Genesis games is confusing to me. Alot of the Sega Saturn's classic library really feels like logical expansions of existing Genesis game-design ideologies to me: Space Harrier > Panzer Dragoon; General Chaos > Dragon Force; Golden Axe > Guardian Heroes; M.U.S.H.A. > Radiant Silvergun; Ranger-X > Bulk Slash; Shining Force II > Shining Force III (duh), and so forth.

Not so much. I can kind of see where you were going with that, but Space Harrier does not feel like Panzer Dragoon to me, and Space Harrier is by far my favorite Sega Game, and Panzer Dragoon my favorite series, and General Chaos is not that much like DF. Some of these comparisons only work because those games are in the same genre, but to me none of those feel like sequels or successors. Well, except SF2 and 3. All subjective, but on this point I just don't agree. As far as the blast processing thing is concerned, it actually didn't matter that it was a faster system, because the SNES used fast rom which made it just as fast. O my god I have not done this in so long. Now I remember what it was like being a kid again.

As far as the Dreamcast stuff is concerned, I remember the wait between games more than anything else. I didn't forget Shenmue or Skies over Arcadia, that was kind of my point, that those types of games didn't come out enough. Those two games, if I remember correctly, came out around the same time? And what happened before that was not a whole lot.

Thanks alot for this post, and to be honest if I sounded like I was trying to reduce the impact of Sega in the gaming world, I apologize cause that was not my intention. What is really funny now is that my older friends give me hell for owning more Sega games and consoles than Nintendo stuff. I would not be honest if I did not admit that if my mom had got a Genesis instead of a SNES, I would have probably been a Sega kid. Who knows?

[GSZX1337]

Am I the only one that didn't have those dumbass Genesis vs. SNES, PSX vs. N64, or Xbox vs. PlayStation arguments? The only times that I talked about video games with kids at school it was about a single game/series. I did have that dumb ass mentality of the PlayStation being better than the N64, but I never went around and argued about it.

What's weird is that I didn't even hear anyone say that one console was better than the other until I moved to my second high school in my Junior Year. I remember a couple of pricks that as soon as I mentioned the Xbox 360 they'd say something like: "Fuck the Xbox360!" "PlayStation 3 is better than the Xbox 360!" I'd then proceed to roll my eyes and stop talking to them.

[Snatch1414]

Sega was always in someone's shadow. First Nintendo then Sony's PS1 (and the N64 you could say), but they had a ton of great games. I'm a Sega fanboy and I think they were a very good company for a long time, they were just never #1.

I think Sega is heaven for someone who grew up on Nintendo and is looking for something different from those days. I thought Sega's games had a different flavor than Nintendo's and vice versa. Heck I even liked a lot of Master System games and would probably play some of them today (Alien Syndrome, Time Soldiers, Ghost House, etc.).

One thing that will always be underrated is Sega's innovation. Sonic was more of an evolution than a revolution but Samba de Amigo in my opinion should be noted as the original rhythm game. When it came out I was going to buy it but my friend said he'd never play it and would feel like an idiot. These days rhythm games played with peripherals is almost mainstream culture. Also, the Dreamcast had an internet connection that, while primitive, wasn't anything like what other companies were doing. Phantasy Star Online also contributed to Sega being ahead of its time when it came to online play. Seaman was also very innovative in comparison so what else was being done at the time.

When Sega officially switched to a software only company, my heart sank but I knew it was in their best interest. It's a shame though. I don't think they've ever had a bad system. The Saturn would be the closest thing (lack of support, hard to program for I heard) but I got a lot of enjoyment out of mine for about a year. Heck, VF2 is my favorite game of all time and I played it endlessly on my Saturn. Other than the Saturn though, everything else is tip top. I still don't think Sega deserved its fate. It was all bad timing for them. The Genesis, while great in its own right, was never the big dog in the 16-bit era and the Dreamcast just ran into a juggernaut in the PS1.

Still, I have my old Dreamcast I purchased on 9/9/99 and it runs perfectly (unlike my Xbox 360, go figure). Kept all my games and am currently trying to get in on the retro stuff by purchasing an old Genesis (model 2 unfortunately) and a copy of Revenge of Shinobi (greatest hits packaging unfortunately). Hopefully in the years to come I'll build up a killer 16-bit Sega collection and round out my Dreamcast collection with about 6-10 titles I still covet. Sega will always be #1 in my heart!

[Original_Name]

I mean, if you want me to be honest -- the last thing people should be doing at this point is writing a book about how much they hated Sega for mostly-insignificant reasons

It's not about my hate of Sega, but the culture at the time. The race between Sega and Nintendo, and all the things that were going on behind closed doors and in the mind of gamers. I guess I should have been more clear on that. Since I was on the Nintendo side I wanted to see what Sega fans thought, is all. I was going to look at the marketing that Sega was using, the underhanded tricks by both companies and so on.

The fact that you can see the high quality of the Saturn releases (good on you for that!) but not find the charm in the Genesis games is confusing to me. Alot of the Sega Saturn's classic library really feels like logical expansions of existing Genesis game-design ideologies to me: Space Harrier > Panzer Dragoon; General Chaos > Dragon Force; Golden Axe > Guardian Heroes; M.U.S.H.A. > Radiant Silvergun; Ranger-X > Bulk Slash; Shining Force II > Shining Force III (duh), and so forth.

Not so much. I can kind of see where you were going with that, but Space Harrier does not feel like Panzer Dragoon to me, and Space Harrier is by far my favorite Sega Game, and Panzer Dragoon my favorite series, and General Chaos is not that much like DF. Some of these comparisons only work because those games are in the same genre, but to me none of those feel like sequels or successors. Well, except SF2 and 3. All subjective, but on this point I just don't agree. As far as the blast processing thing is concerned, it actually didn't matter that it was a faster system, because the SNES used fast rom which made it just as fast. O my god I have not done this in so long. Now I remember what it was like being a kid again.

As far as the Dreamcast stuff is concerned, I remember the wait between games more than anything else. I didn't forget Shenmue or Skies over Arcadia, that was kind of my point, that those types of games didn't come out enough. Those two games, if I remember correctly, came out around the same time? And what happened before that was not a whole lot.

Thanks alot for this post, and to be honest if I sounded like I was trying to reduce the impact of Sega in the gaming world, I apologize cause that was not my intention. What is really funny now is that my older friends give me hell for owning more Sega games and consoles than Nintendo stuff. I would not be honest if I did not admit that if my mom had got a Genesis instead of a SNES, I would have probably been a Sega kid. Who knows?

I mean, you made it known that that was your intention on here, but there wasn't a clear distinction made between your personal limericks about being an unabashed Nintendo fanboy in the cross-fire of massive Capitalist marketing schemes that worked entirely too well and just listing off a bunch of Sega's fuck-ups that illegitmized them to the gaming world. I think you have a great concept, but you have to be alot more focused -- going through Sega's history and listing a bunch of fuck-ups lends itself to a different point than the one I think you're trying to make. My advice would be to cut out alot of the "Sega was worse for these completely objective reasons" and to go way more indepth into what made you become a Nintendo fanboy (citing the Genesis Does ad campaign was a great start, but you need alot more if this is gonna be a book), and what it was like having huge arguments with your friends about these things. I honestly don't think it lends itself to your goal at all to document the fall of Sega -- your bread and butter is exploring what it was like to be a Nintendo fanboy and how the fiercely competitive marketing created and fueled that frivolous passion amongst you and your peers.

As far as the Saturn argument I put forward, that's completely subjective I suppose, but I was trying to say that many of the games you cited are based on the same general precepts as Genesis games that came before them, only blown up on a larger scale. Space Harrier is a behind-the-back rail-shooter set in an impressively-conceived 2D world, Panzer Dragoon is a behind-the-back rail-shooter set in an impressively-conceived 3D world. General Chaos is a fast-paced real-time strategy game consisting of small-scale battles controlled by the player's general avatar, Dragon Force is a fast-paced real-time strategy game consisting of large-scale battles controlled by the player's general avatar. Golden Axe is a sword-and-sorcery fantasy beat-em-up with multiplayer options, Guardian Heroes is a sword-and-sorcery fantasy beat-em-up with branching paths, RPG elements, and more multiplayer options. I'm not trying to say that they're the same games by any means, but that they are the logical extensions of many popular Genesis formulas. If you're still not hep with my jive then that's totally cool -- enjoy your Sega Saturn!

Let's see here for the relatively popular Dreamcast stuff in 2000 alone (US dates)...

Crazy Taxi - Jan. 24, 2000
Legacy of Kain - Soul Reaver - Jan. 27, 2000
Resident Evil: CV/Rayman 2/Dead or Alive 2/Chu Chu Rocket - February 29, 2000
Sword of the Berkerk: Guts' Rage - March 15, 2000
MDK 2 - March 31, 2000
Virtual ON: OT - June 1, 2000
Space Channel 5 - June 4, 2000
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 - June 29, 2000
Virtua Tennis/Fur Fighters - July 12, 2000
Seaman - August 8, 2000
Power Stone 2 - August 23, 2000
Ecco the Dolphin: DOTF - September 9, 2000
Street Fighter III: Third Strike - October 5, 2000
Samba De Amigo - October 18, 2000
Quake III: Arena - October 22, 2000
Jet Set Radio - Novermber 1, 2000
Shenmue - November 6, 2000
Skies of Arcadia - November 13, 2000
Grandia II - December 6, 2000

Factor in a steady stream of fighters and sports and racing games and... I mean, there aren't many gaping slots. There's a short April/May spurt there, but I mean, really, that's pretty insignificant when you factor in all of the 1999 and early 2000 games released prior and realize that nearly every game on here was made by one of only TWO COMPANIES (Sega and Capcom) and really, there's nothing to complain about in terms of quantity of worthwhile titles. The November and December time period actually have a number of great titles, but I was trying not to pile stuff up too much in any one area. I don't know, it's not that big of a deal, it's just that I've NEVER heard anyone complain about Dreamcast games coming out too slow -- the Dreamcast was downright prolific in output.

[Original_Name]

Oh, and uh, on the matter of processing speed -- well, I don't know enough about hardware specifics to even begin to get into a real discussion about that, but I would be willing to bet that the fastest Genesis game is likely faster than the fastest Super Nintendo game. I don't know that for certain, but it seems like that hyper-fast arcade gameplay was the Genesis's strong-suit, and while the Super Nintendo has games that fit that bill, they're not as strong or as many. It's like RPG's -- obviously, the Genesis CAN handle a great RPG (Phantasy Star IV, Shining Force II, etc.) but the Super Nintendo was just more geared towards them (Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy III, Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean, Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, Terranigma, etc). I don't know, I really wasn't looking to argue strengths and weaknesses and so on, I just think you should know that you have an interesting premise, but the things you've written don't really lend themselves to it as well as you might think they do. You need to focus way more on the subjective factors (and treat them as such) that made Nintendo superior in your eyes and in terms of objective facts, more on marketing procedures than anything else.

[benderx]

The shitbox 360 is a good console

[Original_Name]

Am I the only one that didn't have those dumbass Genesis vs. SNES, PSX vs. N64, or Xbox vs. PlayStation arguments? The only times that I talked about video games with kids at school it was about a single game/series. I did have that dumb ass mentality of the PlayStation being better than the N64, but I never went around and argued about it.

What's weird is that I didn't even hear anyone say that one console was better than the other until I moved to my second high school in my Junior Year. I remember a couple of pricks that as soon as I mentioned the Xbox 360 they'd say something like: "Fuck the Xbox360!" "PlayStation 3 is better than the Xbox 360!" I'd then proceed to roll my eyes and stop talking to them.

I mean, when I was younger I didn't really care if someone talked about how great the video game console they had was -- if I knew one thing or another about it I'd probably agree with them like, "Yeah, I've played Starfox 64, it's really good!" even though I personally liked Panzer Dragoon Zwei alot better. It was only when someone would ask me if I had any video games and I'd say, "Yeah! I love my Sega Saturn, and I still play my Genesis and computer games, too," to which they'd respond with some bigoted comment. I was just shocked when the same people who I'd had a conversation with about how neat Super Mario 64 was would turn around and call me an idiot for liking NiGHTS into Dreams, which they'd never even played. The only time I was ever on any real type of offensive was when the Sega Dreamcast was announced, but I wasn't particularly nasty at all. Kids were looking at pictures of Soul Calibur and Sonic Adventure and I would be the slightest bit smug in saying, "Not so stupid for liking Sega now, huh?" - nothing outside of that, though. Transforming into a ravenous wildebeast at the slightest mention of a video game console manufacturer whose latest product did not reside in my home was never a problem for me like it was for so many other kids.

[goatlll]

I mean, if you want me to be honest -- the last thing people should be doing at this point is writing a book about how much they hated Sega for mostly-insignificant reasons

It's not about my hate of Sega, but the culture at the time. The race between Sega and Nintendo, and all the things that were going on behind closed doors and in the mind of gamers. I guess I should have been more clear on that. Since I was on the Nintendo side I wanted to see what Sega fans thought, is all. I was going to look at the marketing that Sega was using, the underhanded tricks by both companies and so on.

The fact that you can see the high quality of the Saturn releases (good on you for that!) but not find the charm in the Genesis games is confusing to me. Alot of the Sega Saturn's classic library really feels like logical expansions of existing Genesis game-design ideologies to me: Space Harrier > Panzer Dragoon; General Chaos > Dragon Force; Golden Axe > Guardian Heroes; M.U.S.H.A. > Radiant Silvergun; Ranger-X > Bulk Slash; Shining Force II > Shining Force III (duh), and so forth.

Not so much. I can kind of see where you were going with that, but Space Harrier does not feel like Panzer Dragoon to me, and Space Harrier is by far my favorite Sega Game, and Panzer Dragoon my favorite series, and General Chaos is not that much like DF. Some of these comparisons only work because those games are in the same genre, but to me none of those feel like sequels or successors. Well, except SF2 and 3. All subjective, but on this point I just don't agree. As far as the blast processing thing is concerned, it actually didn't matter that it was a faster system, because the SNES used fast rom which made it just as fast. O my god I have not done this in so long. Now I remember what it was like being a kid again.

As far as the Dreamcast stuff is concerned, I remember the wait between games more than anything else. I didn't forget Shenmue or Skies over Arcadia, that was kind of my point, that those types of games didn't come out enough. Those two games, if I remember correctly, came out around the same time? And what happened before that was not a whole lot.

Thanks alot for this post, and to be honest if I sounded like I was trying to reduce the impact of Sega in the gaming world, I apologize cause that was not my intention. What is really funny now is that my older friends give me hell for owning more Sega games and consoles than Nintendo stuff. I would not be honest if I did not admit that if my mom had got a Genesis instead of a SNES, I would have probably been a Sega kid. Who knows?

I mean, you made it known that that was your intention on here, but there wasn't a clear distinction made between your personal limericks about being an unabashed Nintendo fanboy in the cross-fire of massive Capitalist marketing schemes that worked entirely too well and just listing off a bunch of Sega's fuck-ups that illegitmized them to the gaming world. I think you have a great concept, but you have to be alot more focused -- going through Sega's history and listing a bunch of fuck-ups lends itself to a different point than the one I think you're trying to make. My advice would be to cut out alot of the "Sega was worse for these completely objective reasons" and to go way more indepth into what made you become a Nintendo fanboy (citing the Genesis Does ad campaign was a great start, but you need alot more if this is gonna be a book), and what it was like having huge arguments with your friends about these things. I honestly don't think it lends itself to your goal at all to document the fall of Sega -- your bread and butter is exploring what it was like to be a Nintendo fanboy and how the fiercely competitive marketing created and fueled that frivolous passion amongst you and your peers.

I guess I should clarify. That blog post has nothing to do with the book, it just game me onus to look further into the culture at that time. It would not be much of a book if I was like "I felt this way and they felt that way". No, it is free of my personal bias, and will focus on interviews with industry people, and the reason I am asking around with Sega kids and Nintendo kids is because, while I knew how I felt, I wanted to see if it was just small circles that felt that way. What I am finding out is it was big deal in the US, not so much in Europe, and a non factor in Japan.

Again, thanks for the post, and maybe we can have a face off on the SvN thing in a different setting. I would enjoy it. But it is not my intention to do that here, but I would be more than happy do discuss that further, if you would want to.

[BoringSupreez]

The only "this console is better than that console" arguments I ever had were with this kid I knew who thought that Gamecube was better than PS2. I tried to convince him that PS2 was better by merit of a larger amount of good games, but he was a Nintendo fanboy, so there was no swaying him. I would admit that GCN was a good system, but I thought PS2 was better. I even eventually bought one.