Religious faith in videogames

[Mr.White555]

This has turned into two things: arguments about the validity of faith, and video games being art. The latter, is the only one with relevance.

I am not a religious man, but from my understanding a video game probably would not be able to deal with the complexity of religion. The result would either be a satire or propaganda.

A video game's purpose is archaic compared to all other mediums(painting, film, sculpture, music, architecture) of art; enjoyment. This is to be expected of a medium so young. Video games have not transcended novelty, at least, not yet. Are video games going to be the future medium for art? Possibly? Honestly the whole art scene is too full of shit for my tastes. If "post modernism"(real creative art critics) is applied to video games I'll give up on them.

Anyways, the reason games shouldn't and don't have faith a major themes is because the medium is not fully developed into maturity. But this probably won't be important because this thread is past its prime or the aforementioned irrelevant argument will, if it has not already, eclipsed those of merit.

[DNT 2.5]

I'm a Christian, so I really have some serious moral conflicts when playing games that have religion [especially Christianity] placed in a noticeably negative light. For example, I just was trying out Bayonetta, and I really, REALLY didn't feel comfortable playing it. What should I do if a game contradicts, and maybe even insults my beliefs? Worse, what if the game is actually very well-made, and otherwise enjoyable to play? Now, I don't want to be one of those people who makes a big fuss about a game just because of its' content, but this has been bothering me for a very long time, and I honestly don't know how to deal with it. Should I just not play the games, and possibly miss out on a good game, or should I just always regard it as total fiction? Or, is rationalization of the obvious just as bad as playing it at all? I want to play the SMT series, I want to play Grandia 2, and I want to play Bayonetta. But, I don't feel like it's right for me to do so. I want some other people's input on this; what should I do? Do I know they're bad games, and I'm just looking for an excuse, or am I just over-thinking a work of fiction?

Well, I am somewhat christian also,
I would say, Play whatever you want, the real connection between you and god is between YOU and GOD. This is the reason I do not like churches, I respect and praise my god by living my life to the fullest, and enjoying myself, I also do not think God is a thing, we have referred to it as a noun, but I can't see a god physically existing, The was I look at it, god is time and fate. I live my life a great, fun and relaxed way, I die a nice quiet death, I live a nice quiet afterlife/reincarnation. I don't think that it chooses any of us to preach in a building after asking for money from your pockets, for all I know, time doesn't need money.
I think that you are overreacting to the games, they are fiction, because I read the Davinci code doesn't mean I am not Catholic anymore. If you start to question your faith, that can be a good thing, you might come to realize something that only you can understand. Everyone answers the question in a different way. Any religion is just another group of people trying to make sense of the world we live in.
However, if you feel uncomfortable playing the games, then by all means do not force yourself to play them, Just try to open your mind, you might pick something up.

[Dylan]

SMT: Strange Journey is very clearly a battle between the forces of God and the forces of Lucifer (and they call out God specifically). It'd be fun to see if they ever made a remake to SMT2, where you get to kill God.

That's not God, it's YHWH.

I thought it was hilarious that SMT2 had a disclaimer stating that likenesses to real world belief systems in the game were coincidental.

YHWH (Pronounced "Yah-weh") is the title of the God of Israel as worshipped by ancient Hebrews and Israelites - the God himself, YHWH, is actually the same deity as the Judeo-Christian deity we know today, only viewed from a slightly more "mordern" perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahwism

...which makes it all the more hilarious that they would claim only a coincidental likeness to real-world belief systems.

I can see that I didn't make effective use of the sarc mark.

[Ack]

I of course acknowledge that there are tomes of video games that I've yet to play (and even more that I simply will never play or may never even hear of), so I'm certain my data is lacking, but the only game I can think of which explores both religion and choice EFFECTIVELY is Black & White. Unfortunately, it explores the side of the religious coin that is not of actual human concern -- the choices and personality of the deity itself. Black & White explores what you as a human being would do in the shoes of a deity, which is an incredibly interesting and introspective experience, but not entirely relevant to the human dilemma of whether or not to have faith in something that your primary senses are not able to detect.

I'm somewhat surprised to see it take this long for Black & White to appear. I would say though that video games have given us many different "morality" plays and opportunities to be on the "evil" side of things. Consider Grand Theft Auto, Dungeon Keeper, Evil Genius, Manhunt...titles where we are the villain, killing either other villains or the "good guys"(I'd say Grand Theft Auto goes furthest with it, satirizing modern society while exclaiming boldly that there really aren't any good guys, just people trying to get ahead through whatever means necessary). Not surprisingly these seem to come mostly from American developers, and beyond a few jokes they tend to avoid religious debate altogether.

As for JRPGs...they've been doing the whole "evil church" thing for so long now that I feel awkward when I find a game without it. It's seriously old hat by now. It's like insane military commanders and super soldiers in Final Fantasy games, you're going to see it at some point. But then again, some JRPGs, and other games, feel like they're merely using it as a springboard to go somewhere else. Do any of you consider Darksiders a poignant discussion of the Christian take on the apocalypse?

On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the church was a place to get healed and save your game in the Lufia games.

[MrPopo]

As for JRPGs...they've been doing the whole "evil church" thing for so long now that I feel awkward when I find a game without it. It's seriously old hat by now. It's like insane military commanders and super soldiers in Final Fantasy games, you're going to see it at some point. But then again, some JRPGs, and other games, feel like they're merely using it as a springboard to go somewhere else. Do any of you consider Darksiders a poignant discussion of the Christian take on the apocalypse?

On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the church was a place to get healed and save your game in the Lufia games.

I've documened three different kinds of JRPG churches. The first is the church that exists in every town but has no governing body. This kind of church is the benign "we need a place for you to save/get healed/learn magic" type of church. You could just as easily replace it with a wizard and it would work just as well.

The second is the church that exists in every town but has some kind of Pope. This is the standard evil church. The random followers are good people who believe what the church teaches on the surface but the leadership all work for the devil figure.

The third is a much rarer beast. This is the church under assault. It only exists in a small part of the game world and the leader is some kind of sympathetic figure. Xenogears comes to mind. Because this church is a legitimately noble body the bad guys can't stand them, so they're trying to remove them.

[Original_Name]

This has turned into two things: arguments about the validity of faith, and video games being art. The latter, is the only one with relevance.

I am not a religious man, but from my understanding a video game probably would not be able to deal with the complexity of religion. The result would either be a satire or propaganda.

A video game's purpose is archaic compared to all other mediums(painting, film, sculpture, music, architecture) of art; enjoyment. This is to be expected of a medium so young. Video games have not transcended novelty, at least, not yet. Are video games going to be the future medium for art? Possibly? Honestly the whole art scene is too full of shit for my tastes. If "post modernism"(real creative art critics) is applied to video games I'll give up on them.

Anyways, the reason games shouldn't and don't have faith a major themes is because the medium is not fully developed into maturity. But this probably won't be important because this thread is past its prime or the aforementioned irrelevant argument will, if it has not already, eclipsed those of merit.

I certainly agree with the notion that video games have not come even close to developing into maturity, but I'm troubled by the notion that video games shouldn't actively try to tackle mature subjects. A medium isn't going to mature by being content to be a sideshow amusement - there has to be a driving ambition to push the medium forward in some way or another -- a refusal to remain content with simply what you are. I think what you should keep in mind is that you are not affected when a video game fails or could have been better if you don't buy it. To be perfectly honest though, I've been disappointed by games that were good, but failed to challenge the medium in any way (I often expect for RPG's to have DAMN. GOOD. stories since they sacrifice so much gameplay in order to tell them) -- I don't just want my reflexes challenged sometimes - I want my preconceptions of what a video game should be to be challenged.

If you ask me, the traditional methods of video game craftsmanship have been VERY well defined and explored. Defining a set destination and conquering or avoiding entities in order to get there in one's desired fashion. I COULD make do playing this archetype of video game forever because it's been proven to be effective. Mario will never get old. Pac-Man will never get old. Space Invaders will never get old. Tetris will never get old, and so on -- but why settle with just simplicity? Sure, I know those gameplay archetypes work, but why stop there? Given my druthers, since I know that Crazy Taxi and Seaman came out on the very same console, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too -- there can be games that exhilerate me solely on the basis of silly, fun gameplay and games that require patience and some degree of self-meditation in order to create the impact they desire. And y'know what? Back in 2000 I was playing both of those games AT THE SAME TIME. No genre or concept of gameplay has to die out just because another one is born -- puzzle games weren't killed off by first-person shooters, were they?

I think part of the problem with video games is inherent in its name... video games. It makes too many assumptions about the content... "Video Simulation" seems to be a much more fitting descriptive term to capture the essence of the medium if you ask me. You simulate the guy who drops the blocks just as you simulate the virus that hacks into Eden or the guy who hunts down the Colossi or the guy who's looking for the man who killed his father or the guy who talks to the fish-thing. "Video games" implies a single philosophy, and it does not have to be this way. Just as comic books certainly do not have to be comedic by any means -- Scott McCloud made a great point that they are more accurately "Sequential Art".

You made a good point that "The result would be either satire or propaganda," but I disagree with the finality of your logic. Perhaps you see reason to believe that the topic has not been covered YET by modern video game technology, but you're employing inductive logic by stating, "There hasn't been a game to explore religion in a satisfactory manner, therefore it logically follows that within the next two years no games will succeed in exploring religion in a satisfactory manner." Why do you reason this? Is it because video games are not capable of providing enough choices because of technological restraints, thus making the results "canned" and lending themselves to propaganda or satire? Could not the same thing be said for the linear mediums of literature and film? I say if a video game offers two choices, it's already offered the audience more strictly as a piece of art (meaning in regards exclusively to the contents of the individual piece of art) than literature or film are capable of. Or are you saying that video games are not subtle enough? Because I promise you that less than 10% of the people who have played Rez, Ikaruga, and Seaman could REALLY tell you what they're about, and yet for those who are hep to their jive, their depth and complexity are shocking.

Oh yeah... Ikaruga! Ikaruga explores Taoism! I started a discussion on that a while back:

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=19187

This particular piece articulates my thoughts on the sophistication of the medium better than I was able to just now:

[Original_Name]

I can see that I didn't make effective use of the sarc mark.

Dude, I was so afraid of that! I thought you were maybe implying that it was pretty much the same God and they were just calling it something else to avoid flak, and I was trying to say, "Dude, not EVEN." But yeah, you were wiser than my post gave you credit for -- props have been bestowed upon you.

[Limewater]

Well, I am somewhat christian also,
I would say, Play whatever you want, the real connection between you and god is between YOU and GOD. This is the reason I do not like churches, I respect and praise my god by living my life to the fullest, and enjoying myself, I also do not think God is a thing, we have referred to it as a noun, but I can't see a god physically existing, The was I look at it, god is time and fate. I live my life a great, fun and relaxed way, I die a nice quiet death, I live a nice quiet afterlife/reincarnation. I don't think that it chooses any of us to preach in a building after asking for money from your pockets, for all I know, time doesn't need money.

"I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven, you’re really not in any meaningful sense a Christian."

-- Christopher Hitchens

[Dylan]

I can see that I didn't make effective use of the sarc mark.

Dude, I was so afraid of that! I thought you were maybe implying that it was pretty much the same God and they were just calling it something else to avoid flak, and I was trying to say, "Dude, not EVEN." But yeah, you were wiser than my post gave you credit for -- props have been bestowed upon you.

Excellent, props accepted.

[sevin0seven]

"I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven, you’re really not in any meaningful sense a Christian."

-- Christopher Hitchens

this summarize what a "christian" is. nuff said.