Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie. I saw it twice and have the 2-disc DVD set. It's a good movie that treats the Batman character with respect. However, it's been hailed as a masterpiece, the best Batman movie ever, the movie that puts Tim Burton's work to shame. I don't think the movie is even close to that good. It had a number of flaws, and if we factor in animated movies then Batman Mask of the Phantasm is really the best Batman movie ever, followed by Batman Beyond Return of the Joker(the darker, uncensored version that is). Anyway, here are my problems with Batman Begins:
1.Rachel Dawes-A self-righteous, holier than thou, preachy little b*** who should have been written right out of the script. She's such a chick flick cliche. The mature woman who must make the immature hero learn how to be a real man. Lame. Miscast too, I mean who the heck is really buying Katie Holmes as a tough District Attorney? Couldn't we have had Harvey Dent in the movie instead?
2. The fight scenes were crap. I have seen better fights on Buffy and Angel, two low budget, niche tv shows. Batman Begins was a big budget movie from a big studio based on an internationally reknown character. The only satisfying action sequence in the movie was the Batmobile chase scene.
3. Too much cutesy crap. Jim Gordon in the Batmobile. Lame. Batman talking to some cute kid in one scene like he's this wholesome, family friendly Spiderman character. Lame.
4. This is purely bias, but I like Michael Keaton better as Batman. He nails that tortured, my life is hell look better than Christian Bale. Also, he brought a certain awkwardness to the Bruce Wayne character. Something we've also seen in Batman: The Animated Series. Chrisitian Bale is too comfortable in the rich playboy role. This isn't who Batman really is. Bruce Wayne is a fake persona, the real Batman is the man in the cape and cowl.
5. Tim Burton's villains were better too. Michelle Pfeifer and Jack Nicholson were great as Catwoman and Joker, even if they were a little over the top. Raz Algul's character was crap in Batman Begins. He's not nearly as interesting as he has been portrayed in the comics or The Animated Series. He's basically just some ninja guy who leads a bunch of other ninja guys. Lame. And that whole, "we have destroyed corrupt cities throughout history" thing was ridiculous. Even if you buy that crap, are we suppossed to believe that little old Gotham City is THAT important. Scarecrow was just a bit part in the movie really and this leads to my next complaint....
6. The fear toxin stuff was cheesy. Seriously, the "scary" versions of Batman and Scar Crow looked liked something out of a low budget, B horror movie. They were laughable.
7. I thought Batman didn't kill people. He kills Raz Algul. And I'm not buying that he didn't really kill him he just let him die crap. It's the same thing. That's like Locke from Lost(spoiler alert)) thinking he didn't really kill his father just because he manipulated someone else to do it for him. In fact, this movie has one of the lamest bits of dialogue EVER. When he says he won't kill him, but he doesn't have to save him either. WTF?! What the hell's the difference? Batman is too cool to have such lame dialogue.
All those things really irritated me. Like I said though, I did like the movie. It was more serious and darker overall than the Joel Schumacher crap, it gave a decent re-telling of Batman's origins(minus the Rachel Dawes crap), had a few nice comic book references, most of the casting was good, Gotham City was nicely portrayed and I loved the Batmobile sequence. The movie DOES have flaws though.
Anyone think Batman Begins is a little overrated?
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Gamerforlife
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Reminds me of one of my rants: http://www.stevemv.com/forum/so-about-x ... d-t27.html
But agreed, somewhat. The early animated series and those two movies are fantastic representations of Batman, and probably by far the best out of anything else.
I still think this movie was the best live action Batman flick ever. Have you watched the original with Keaton, lately? It's fucking cheesy. Far cheesier than this movie. No comparison at all. It's still great though.
I think Bale carries a great LOOK for Bruce Wayne, but not a great personality. Also his Batman voice was indeed pathetic and forced. It really annoyed me when he tried snarling the dialog. It just didn't work. Keaton was a much better Batman, but kind of a retarded Bruce Wayne at times. The curly hair also just didn't work.
And yes, just like in the Spiderman movies, the lead female fucking ruins every scene she graces. She feels very tacked on and pointless. I notice how the actresses forget to wear bras for the days when they shoot the "romantic" scenes. Some kind of substitute for actual plot, I guess.
Joker and Catwoman were indeed played very well in the old movies. I just recently watched Returns for the first time in a decade, and I was so surprised at how well Michelle Pfeifer was Catwoman. God damn perfect, really. Loved the voice and personality quirks.
Everything else you say, I just...can't quite agree with. I didn't expect brutal kung fu, since Batman usually relies on wits and gadgets, so I was fine with a few punches and gliding tackles and shit. I think scarecrow and Algul worked just fine. Scarecrow honestly was scarier without the mask. Whoever that actor is, his face is just disturbing. I'm told he's a teen heart-throb. Ugh. And no, Batman did not kill him technically. If I remember correctly, he didn't control the train, and he didn't place him on the train to begin with. It works for me.
But agreed, somewhat. The early animated series and those two movies are fantastic representations of Batman, and probably by far the best out of anything else.
I still think this movie was the best live action Batman flick ever. Have you watched the original with Keaton, lately? It's fucking cheesy. Far cheesier than this movie. No comparison at all. It's still great though.
I think Bale carries a great LOOK for Bruce Wayne, but not a great personality. Also his Batman voice was indeed pathetic and forced. It really annoyed me when he tried snarling the dialog. It just didn't work. Keaton was a much better Batman, but kind of a retarded Bruce Wayne at times. The curly hair also just didn't work.
And yes, just like in the Spiderman movies, the lead female fucking ruins every scene she graces. She feels very tacked on and pointless. I notice how the actresses forget to wear bras for the days when they shoot the "romantic" scenes. Some kind of substitute for actual plot, I guess.
Joker and Catwoman were indeed played very well in the old movies. I just recently watched Returns for the first time in a decade, and I was so surprised at how well Michelle Pfeifer was Catwoman. God damn perfect, really. Loved the voice and personality quirks.
Everything else you say, I just...can't quite agree with. I didn't expect brutal kung fu, since Batman usually relies on wits and gadgets, so I was fine with a few punches and gliding tackles and shit. I think scarecrow and Algul worked just fine. Scarecrow honestly was scarier without the mask. Whoever that actor is, his face is just disturbing. I'm told he's a teen heart-throb. Ugh. And no, Batman did not kill him technically. If I remember correctly, he didn't control the train, and he didn't place him on the train to begin with. It works for me.
Re: Anyone think Batman Begins is a little overrated?
Well, the things you nitpick are the same things that annoy me in many films. Like you, I enjoyed it for what it was -- a fairly stylish and sincere take on another comic book character.Gamerforlife wrote:Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie. I saw it twice and have the 2-disc DVD set. It's a good movie that treats the Batman character with respect. However, it's been hailed as a masterpiece, the best Batman movie ever, the movie that puts Tim Burton's work to shame. I don't think the movie is even close to that good. It had a number of flaws, and if we factor in animated movies then Batman Mask of the Phantasm is really the best Batman movie ever, followed by Batman Beyond Return of the Joker(the darker, uncensored version that is). Anyway, here are my problems with Batman Begins:
1.Rachel Dawes-A self-righteous, holier than thou, preachy little b*** who should have been written right out of the script. She's such a chick flick cliche. The mature woman who must make the immature hero learn how to be a real man. Lame. Miscast too, I mean who the heck is really buying Katie Holmes as a tough District Attorney? Couldn't we have had Harvey Dent in the movie instead?
2. The fight scenes were crap. I have seen better fights on Buffy and Angel, two low budget, niche tv shows. Batman Begins was a big budget movie from a big studio based on an internationally reknown character. The only satisfying action sequence in the movie was the Batmobile chase scene.
3. Too much cutesy crap. Jim Gordon in the Batmobile. Lame. Batman talking to some cute kid in one scene like he's this wholesome, family friendly Spiderman character. Lame.
4. This is purely bias, but I like Michael Keaton better as Batman. He nails that tortured, my life is hell look better than Christian Bale. Also, he brought a certain awkwardness to the Bruce Wayne character. Something we've also seen in Batman: The Animated Series. Chrisitian Bale is too comfortable in the rich playboy role. This isn't who Batman really is. Bruce Wayne is a fake persona, the real Batman is the man in the cape and cowl.
5. Tim Burton's villains were better too. Michelle Pfeifer and Jack Nicholson were great as Catwoman and Joker, even if they were a little over the top. Raz Algul's character was crap in Batman Begins. He's not nearly as interesting as he has been portrayed in the comics or The Animated Series. He's basically just some ninja guy who leads a bunch of other ninja guys. Lame. And that whole, "we have destroyed corrupt cities throughout history" thing was ridiculous. Even if you buy that crap, are we suppossed to believe that little old Gotham City is THAT important. Scarecrow was just a bit part in the movie really and this leads to my next complaint....
6. The fear toxin stuff was cheesy. Seriously, the "scary" versions of Batman and Scar Crow looked liked something out of a low budget, B horror movie. They were laughable.
7. I thought Batman didn't kill people. He kills Raz Algul. And I'm not buying that he didn't really kill him he just let him die crap. It's the same thing. That's like Locke from Lost(spoiler alert)) thinking he didn't really kill his father just because he manipulated someone else to do it for him. In fact, this movie has one of the lamest bits of dialogue EVER. When he says he won't kill him, but he doesn't have to save him either. WTF?! What the hell's the difference? Batman is too cool to have such lame dialogue.
All those things really irritated me. Like I said though, I did like the movie. It was more serious and darker overall than the Joel Schumacher crap, it gave a decent re-telling of Batman's origins(minus the Rachel Dawes crap), had a few nice comic book references, most of the casting was good, Gotham City was nicely portrayed and I loved the Batmobile sequence. The movie DOES have flaws though.
The DA character, with her moralizing and righteousness didn't bother me -- not as a character at least. I will concur that Katie Holmes does not fit the role.
Many aspects did not bother me, simply because when you watch a movie like this, you have to make an effort to suspend disbelief. To inflict and sort of reality on a film like this utterly kills what pleasure it might offer. Thus, the utterly unrealistic technology that Wayne discovers in his own company, gets a quick nod of being silly, but is swiftly digested as part of the greater unrealistic -- but accepted -- world of Batman. And thats probably why I don't particular remember the hallucinatory experiences as being laughable, for instance -- but they probably were.
The only real exception I'll take to your post is the whole Tim Burton/Michael Keaton angle. I decided to rewatch those films recently, and... I think they are godawful. Keaton is utterly unconvincing. Nicholson is silly -- not in a Joker manner -- but just ridiculously silly. The direction tends to be either bland and pedestrian, or cartoonishly like a circus. Catwoman, was ungodly horrible -- as pleasing as Pfeiffer is as an actress. Even when leaving reality on the coat-rack to watch these films, I found them to be terrible.
I'll say that the Burton Batman film (the first one, at least), was good fodder for a less critical child (moi). But with age and experience, and so many better films seen since, they don't seem to offer much anymore.
Then again, I'm more than a little weary of comic-book making their way to the cinema. Maybe because there have just been too many of them lately -- any many of them wretched. My wife and I snuck into Daredevil, and still feel like we were cheated.
Edited: Damn it, everyone seems to jump on this thread while I was writing. Mozgus nailed it with "cheesy". The Burton films are pure cheese. And, I'm growing lactose intolerant with my years.
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Gamerforlife
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Actually, Batman doesn't rely on just wits and gadgets. He's actually one of the best martial artists in the DC universe, and the Animated Series(as well as Justice League) always gave him a kind of finesse to his fighting that I don't think Batman Begins had. He's shown incredible feats of acrobatics in the cartoons too, particularly in the very last Justice League Unlimited episode where he actually impresses Darkseid. I just think they could have used a good stunt double or two to make the fights better, like they do in Buffy/Angel. Batman seemed too much like a "fighter" in the movie, and not a martial artist.
The guy who played Scarecrow was in Red Eye where he played a convincing Psycho. My problems with Scarecrow and Raz have nothing to do with the actors.
I still think Burton's original Batman holds up well, though Batman Returns was a bit too silly. There are some things it just did better, like the death of Bruce's parents. I like the old school Batmobile(as opposed to the Dark Knight Returns version in Batman Begins). I'll take Vicky Vale over Rachel Dawes any day of the week. In fact, I think Burton actually kept in Harvey Dent. I like Gotham's portrayal. In BB it's just a corrupt, dirty city. In Burton's version, it's still that, but also has a surreal quality to it. Christian Bale doesn't work for me as Batman. He's too much of a pretty boy. He has that Hollywood look. Same reason I couldn't stand Val Kilmer as Batman. Plus, didn't it seem like he got one too many one liners as I recall. Again, the guy's not Spiderman. The "bat's are nocturnal" line was funny, but it's just not Batman. And I'm sorry, but Nicholson as Joker was great. He nailed the character as well as Hamill does in the cartoon.
And for those of you who love the animated Batman, much of it was based on Burton's take on the character.
And if we're going to talk about cheese. Scarecrow's silly looking mask, the silly looking fear toxin effects, him riding through the streets on a horse, the silly, stereotypical ninja stuff with Raz, JIM GORDON IN THE BATMOBILE!!!
Come on now
The guy who played Scarecrow was in Red Eye where he played a convincing Psycho. My problems with Scarecrow and Raz have nothing to do with the actors.
I still think Burton's original Batman holds up well, though Batman Returns was a bit too silly. There are some things it just did better, like the death of Bruce's parents. I like the old school Batmobile(as opposed to the Dark Knight Returns version in Batman Begins). I'll take Vicky Vale over Rachel Dawes any day of the week. In fact, I think Burton actually kept in Harvey Dent. I like Gotham's portrayal. In BB it's just a corrupt, dirty city. In Burton's version, it's still that, but also has a surreal quality to it. Christian Bale doesn't work for me as Batman. He's too much of a pretty boy. He has that Hollywood look. Same reason I couldn't stand Val Kilmer as Batman. Plus, didn't it seem like he got one too many one liners as I recall. Again, the guy's not Spiderman. The "bat's are nocturnal" line was funny, but it's just not Batman. And I'm sorry, but Nicholson as Joker was great. He nailed the character as well as Hamill does in the cartoon.
And for those of you who love the animated Batman, much of it was based on Burton's take on the character.
And if we're going to talk about cheese. Scarecrow's silly looking mask, the silly looking fear toxin effects, him riding through the streets on a horse, the silly, stereotypical ninja stuff with Raz, JIM GORDON IN THE BATMOBILE!!!
Come on now
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Gamerforlife
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Oh, and the train thing. Batman set the thing up to crash, and then he beat Raz to a pulp leaving him in no condition to escape from it. He killed Raz Algul(and I realize I've probably spelled that name wrong many times now)and I hate how the writers cop out, and try to make it look like the guy's death is not Batman's responsiblity. He could have EASILY saved Raz Algul, but he CHOSE not to.
Have some balls writers and stick to your guns. Either your Batman is a killer, or he isn't.
And not to get off topic, but X-Men 3 did have its share of problem. I think it's interesting though that Bret Ratner get so much hate for the way it turned out, while Bryan Singer still seems beloved by comic book fans everywhere despite the fact that he pretty much gave them all the finger, by choosing not to finish the X-Men trilogy.
Have some balls writers and stick to your guns. Either your Batman is a killer, or he isn't.
And not to get off topic, but X-Men 3 did have its share of problem. I think it's interesting though that Bret Ratner get so much hate for the way it turned out, while Bryan Singer still seems beloved by comic book fans everywhere despite the fact that he pretty much gave them all the finger, by choosing not to finish the X-Men trilogy.
harvey dent in the original burton film was played by billy dee williams. not a race issue at all, but i didn't think that two-face was ever portrayed as a black man (again, not a race issue, more a contextual issue).
i didn't care for katie holmes but she has not been re-cast for the dark knight.
the take on the whole backstory and focusing on the desperation and despair that the people felt (which ultimately led to bruce wayne's parents' murder) is much more accurate in batman begins than it is in the burton films. i'm anxious to see how nolen portrays the joker in the dark knight.
i enjoyed the movie. i do think jim gordon in the batmobile was silly but gary oldman was a perfect jim gordan.
i didn't care for katie holmes but she has not been re-cast for the dark knight.
the take on the whole backstory and focusing on the desperation and despair that the people felt (which ultimately led to bruce wayne's parents' murder) is much more accurate in batman begins than it is in the burton films. i'm anxious to see how nolen portrays the joker in the dark knight.
i enjoyed the movie. i do think jim gordon in the batmobile was silly but gary oldman was a perfect jim gordan.
Burton did Batman campy. Not implicitly or just a little, but way way campy, almost John Waters Batman. Villans shouldn't be campy just because they are lunatics.
If it is hard for you to see a difference in the animated Joker and Jack Nicholsen (and there is a difference), then compare the other villans. I doubt you would have seen a Penguin-carrying funeral procession of mind controlled rocket launching penguins in the animated series honestly trying to appear solemn.
EDIT: Yeah I cringed hard at Gordon in the batmobile lol. Ouch. He looks like he is going down on some dude and very frightened.
If it is hard for you to see a difference in the animated Joker and Jack Nicholsen (and there is a difference), then compare the other villans. I doubt you would have seen a Penguin-carrying funeral procession of mind controlled rocket launching penguins in the animated series honestly trying to appear solemn.
EDIT: Yeah I cringed hard at Gordon in the batmobile lol. Ouch. He looks like he is going down on some dude and very frightened.
Let my legs shake me to sleep, and don't wake me when I sweat on my sheets.