Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Talk about just about anything else that is non-gaming here, but keep it clean
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Luke
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Luke »

Kebo wrote:
Yea, but that's not from a retailer where the money goes to the creator,...

Of course buying second-hand copies like that is the other reasonable option to obtain it, but for some games that's not always the case. Panzer Dragoon Saga, for example. I would never object to someone pirating that game, here and now in 2010. And as time continues on, many of the early games, especially CD based ones, will stop working.
It did at some point.

There are plenty of copies of Dragoon out there.

CDs will work as long as you take care of them.

I'm not sure if anyone on this site is impressed with the amount of roms someone has downloaded.

Okay. I think that last comment was snarky. Sorry, long, long, long day.
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Kebo
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Kebo »

Luke wrote:
Kebo wrote:
Yea, but that's not from a retailer where the money goes to the creator,...

Of course buying second-hand copies like that is the other reasonable option to obtain it, but for some games that's not always the case. Panzer Dragoon Saga, for example. I would never object to someone pirating that game, here and now in 2010. And as time continues on, many of the early games, especially CD based ones, will stop working.
It did at some point.

There are plenty of copies of Dragoon out there.

CDs will work as long as you take care of them.

I'm not sure if anyone on this site is impressed with the amount of roms someone has downloaded.

Okay. I think that last comment was snarky. Sorry, long, long, long day.
I agree. I'm not advocating for one side or another, mind you. I prefer the real thing by a long shot. I'm simply stating I don't see any serious moral objections to the practice. Paying someone $200 for a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga comes from a collector's spirit (which I myself have), but let's not pretend it's putting money into the industry or those who worked on the game.

All material breaks down eventually. The predicted lifespans of a lot of discs, even if well kept, is somewhere in the range of 50 years. It is for the benefit of future generations of gamers that someone does 'pirate' these games. But not until they are long off the market and the creators have reaped their just reward for their months or years of hard work.
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hailrazer
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by hailrazer »

Luke wrote:
CDs will work as long as you take care of them.
No , no they won't. I already have several older CD based games with bit-rot that no longer work.
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Luke
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Luke »

hailrazer wrote:
Luke wrote:
CDs will work as long as you take care of them.
No , no they won't. I already have several older CD based games with bit-rot that no longer work.
Prevent the bit rot!
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by AppleQueso »

hailrazer wrote:
Luke wrote:
CDs will work as long as you take care of them.
No , no they won't. I already have several older CD based games with bit-rot that no longer work.
You mean disc-rot? From what I recall, bit-rot is generally only something that affects EEPROMs and similar things.

I've found disc-rot to be a pretty rare occurrence, and most of the time when it does it's due to environmental factors. I take care of my CDs, and such I expect them to last at least as long as I need them (till I'm dead?).
Jimmy Yakapucci
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Jimmy Yakapucci »

I keep hearing these arguments about having a back-up copy in case something happens to the original. Does that mean that I should be able to have a free back-up of the new toaster that I just bought in case something happens to it? Why do people think that when they buy a game that it will stay perfect forever and never wear out, get broken, lost, etc? What other product does that exist with? Everything else we buy in life eventually wears out or breaks or something and gets replaced. Why should we not expect the same with games, movies, music CDs, etc.? Or is it just that there exists a way to make a back-up of a digital product as opposed to a toaster?

Even if there were a legitimate reason for making an archive copy of a digital product, that does not create a legitimate reason for posting it somewhere for download.

JY
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jp1
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by jp1 »

Jimmy Yakapucci wrote:I keep hearing these arguments about having a back-up copy in case something happens to the original. Does that mean that I should be able to have a free back-up of the new toaster that I just bought in case something happens to it? Why do people think that when they buy a game that it will stay perfect forever and never wear out, get broken, lost, etc? What other product does that exist with? Everything else we buy in life eventually wears out or breaks or something and gets replaced. Why should we not expect the same with games, movies, music CDs, etc.? Or is it just that there exists a way to make a back-up of a digital product as opposed to a toaster?

Even if there were a legitimate reason for making an archive copy of a digital product, that does not create a legitimate reason for posting it somewhere for download.

JY
A toaster is physical property and games/music/movies are intellectual property. You own the rights to the data on the disc and you should be able to make as many copies as you wish, of course it is still wrong to distribute them. Also, I don't think that anyone would care if you created another toaster identical to the one you own and didn't take it (or the parts) away from anyone by stealing. You are free to build as many toasters as you wish. In fact you could probably find the information on how to build one online.

You see the problem with the way companies want to enforce copyright laws is that it is unethical. They want to have it both ways. It is intellectual property when it suits their needs and it is physical property when it suits their needs...but it is never both at the same time or just one or the other. It is the incredible morphing money sucking righteous machine. There needs to be a fair (logical) standard set of rules that applies to protect both the company AND the consumer from being screwed. It isn't an argument for the right to piracy it is just one reason people hate the enforcement of it so much.
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Kebo
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Kebo »

Jimmy Yakapucci wrote:I keep hearing these arguments about having a back-up copy in case something happens to the original. Does that mean that I should be able to have a free back-up of the new toaster that I just bought in case something happens to it? Why do people think that when they buy a game that it will stay perfect forever and never wear out, get broken, lost, etc? What other product does that exist with? Everything else we buy in life eventually wears out or breaks or something and gets replaced. Why should we not expect the same with games, movies, music CDs, etc.? Or is it just that there exists a way to make a back-up of a digital product as opposed to a toaster?

Even if there were a legitimate reason for making an archive copy of a digital product, that does not create a legitimate reason for posting it somewhere for download.

JY
Here's the difference. Someone can repair a toaster, or a car from the 1960s, indefinitely. I lived in a house built in 1835. As long as those parts are manufactured, people can keep, or even pass on various goods. I cannot repair a CD except by copying it to another CD or disk drive. Trust me, if I could seriously repair the original CDs, I would. Maybe someday it will be possible.

It took me a full month of checking eBay every single day to find a copy of Romance of the Three Kingdoms 4 for PC. There was nowhere to download it on the internet. If I had never found it on eBay, was I to simply never play the game again? To what end? To teach me a lesson that things don't last? Well, if the data can last, why not preserve it? I will always go for a hard copy first when able. But my money is far better spent on new, retail games that help the industry and creators than paying $200 for used copies of old games where the money solely goes to the individual that is selling it, and often selling it at a personal profit (Panzer Dragoon Saga did not retail for $200). Those purchases will come with time, when they won't take and leech from the money that should be reserved for current, retail games. In fact, one could argue buying old, used games hurts the industry more than helps it, unless you're constantly buying new games to compensate. After all, if you're buying old games, you won't need to buy as many new ones. This pushes money into gamers' hands, rather than developers'.

I feel the issue of legacy games is far from black and white and not one we should ever try to legislate, or even use peer pressure for people to decide. Piracy of that which is on the market is a completely different monster and I will always vehemently oppose it.

Think about this: Are we to let books simply die out with their original pages? Never to copy or reproduce them, even after their creators have died? What a horrible disservice it would be to civilization and history for that to happen. Well, I like to think of games as important cultural milestones, especially early in this industry's history, that when we're long gone, people will still be able to experience and look back on.
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by Hatta »

Jimmy Yakapucci wrote:I keep hearing these arguments about having a back-up copy in case something happens to the original. Does that mean that I should be able to have a free back-up of the new toaster that I just bought in case something happens to it?
Yes, you are absolutely free to examine your toaster and build a copy of it.
Why do people think that when they buy a game that it will stay perfect forever and never wear out, get broken, lost, etc?
Because bits are fundamentally timeless. Numbers don't age.
What other product does that exist with? Everything else we buy in life eventually wears out or breaks or something and gets replaced. Why should we not expect the same with games, movies, music CDs, etc.? Or is it just that there exists a way to make a back-up of a digital product as opposed to a toaster?
Yes, information is fundamentally different from other products we buy. We would do well to recognize that and treat them differently, instead of using the law as kludge to simulate scarcity.
Even if there were a legitimate reason for making an archive copy of a digital product, that does not create a legitimate reason for posting it somewhere for download.
Unless there's no other way for people to acquire the software. How many Apple II games would be lost to the ages if it weren't for crackers and BBSs?

Basic economics tells us that when the marginal cost of producing an item is 0, supply is infinite, and therefore price is zero. You cannot change the laws of economics. You cannot change the nature of information through legislation. The only thing you can do is adapt your business model to charge for quantities that are not scarce.
We are prepared to live in the plain and die in the plain!
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hailrazer
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Re: Does the hunt on piracy piss off anyone else here?

Post by hailrazer »

AppleQueso wrote:
hailrazer wrote:
Luke wrote:
CDs will work as long as you take care of them.
No , no they won't. I already have several older CD based games with bit-rot that no longer work.
You mean disc-rot? From what I recall, bit-rot is generally only something that affects EEPROMs and similar things.

I've found disc-rot to be a pretty rare occurrence, and most of the time when it does it's due to environmental factors. I take care of my CDs, and such I expect them to last at least as long as I need them (till I'm dead?).
Bit-Rot is a generic term for the degradation of data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot First two sentences :)

And it's not as rare occurrence as you might think. There have been studies done that found bit-rot in CD's that were only 2-3 years old. It is happening more and more now. Most people just assume it is a scratched disc or some other problem like that.
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-----Genimini---------Darth64---------Dreamtrooper--------Ncube---------Kamikazi64---N64Boy Advance
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