I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

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Anayo
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by Anayo »

As for Zelda, I think the franchise represents some of the WORST story telling in the entire industry. Every game just boils down to Link fights Ganon, saves Zelda and ultimately everything else in the story just doesn't matter. Nothing has really changed since the original Zelda on the NES
I disagree. Most Zelda games have at least one character in it that goes through some personal change, coming across as endearing and memorable.

In Majora's Mask, Link is stuck with Tatl the fairy. Tatl acts condescending and stuck up, bossing Link around even though she's a pipsqueak Link could squish if he felt like it. Realizing they have to depend on each other, Tatl apologizes and tries to be nice to Link. They go through various struggles and eventually forget to snap at each other. By the time the game is over Tatl has warmed up to Link and they're friends.

A formula roughly equivalent to this is followed in Twilight Princess with Midna, with some subtle differences.

Stuff like this is the reason Charles' Dickens "A Christmas Carol" has aged so well. Ebeneezer Scrooge starts out greedy, then by the end of the story he's generous.

I think abstract silly games are great when they embrace themselves as such. Like Contra. You never reload your weapon. Touching an enemy's ankle causes you to spawl over dead. It's ridiculous and unbelievable and fun as hell.

What bothers me is games that have cut scenes and characters in them that pretend to be something more significant than Contra, but can't exhibit characters that aren't even as deep as Ebeneezer Scrooge. If you ask me, this is what keeps games from being more than immature kids' toys.
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

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I actually agree with some of the points the OP makes, but in general I feel modern FPS are pretty full of themselves. If you want an FPS where they give you character development, try Unreal 2.

That said, I don't necessarily feel that camera angles kill a game. In some cases they can bolster them, and quite well. Consider Silent Hill, with its exposition and horror-influenced viewpoints. Yes, it focuses a lot more on the characters, and Harry can't take a lot of punishment. He's also not very good with a gun, which means you have to wait for enemies to get closer. It gets quite intense, and you end up emotionally invested. Personally, it's something I've always thought survival horror did well.

Oh, and Doom's plot explains why the station on Phobos(and then Deimos) are so messed up. Yes, Doom had a plot.
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

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Ack wrote:Oh, and Doom's plot explains why the station on Phobos(and then Deimos) are so messed up. Yes, Doom had a plot.
Doom actually had a pretty damn coherent plot. It's refreshing to play through it after playing through a more modern "epic story".
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J T
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

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Great rant Anayo. It reminds of something that Jonathon Blow (creator of Braid) has recently identified as one of the fundamental dilemmas that videogame developers have to contend with: narrative and gameplay are often at odds with each other.

Too much dialogue and exposition and the gameplay begins to suffer. Too much gameplay, and the story has to be put on hold while you punch 200 people in the face, which also doesn't make a lot of sense in the story. It's not clear what the best solution is to this dilemma. Some have tried to merge the gameplay with the narrative to varying degrees of success. Most notably, the Half Life series changed the way a lot of people viewed story telling in games. The main characters ran beside you, talked with you during the action, and set up great backdrops where you could see what was going on in city 17 by little setups where you encounter the columbine pushing people around or you see announcements being broadcast on giant televisions. You never have to stop and watch the cutscene in Half Life games. This works pretty well. I agree with Gamerforlife though that the silent protagonist idea doesn't work very well. It's an interesting idea in theory, but it turns out that it's not really easy to graft your own personality onto your game avatar, especially when you have no way of talking to all the people talking to you.

Another game that did videogame storytelling really well in an unconventional way was Shadow of the Collossus. There is actually very little said in Shadow of the Colossus, but I consider it one of the best stories ever told through the videogame medium. Wander's true love is in a deathly slumber. Shadowy figures explain that she may wake again if Wander will topple the sixteen garagantuan colossi that inhabit the world. That, and a little twist at the end, is all there is to the basic plot. Everything else about the story is told through gameplay and atmosphere, and Shadow of the Colossus does this part extremely well. It is a grand sweeping adventure that does not need to be narrated, but experienced. You travel the large expanses of land through various terrain seeking out the colossi. Each one you encounter feels exciting. You've traveled for so long without seeing any signs of life, and then suddenly ove a hilltop you spy the top of the giant head of a colossus. They all appear ancient, primitive, and majestic with their own sort of grace. One can imagine there are long stories behind each colossi, but the game leaves that to your imagination. It's one of the shining examples of story being told THROUGH gameplay. There is a basic premise to set you on your way, and then you play out the adventure. Unlike Contra though, this game gets you to care about your enemies. They are the sole inhabitants of the landscape, so they appear to be of no harm to anyone, unless they killed off everyone, but that's never explained. Instead, you're left with this nagging feeling that maybe it's not your place to kill them, but since it is supposedly the only way to bring your love back to life, you carry on anyway. You feel emotion in this game and moral conflict. That is because the game is more than gameplay. It is gameplay with hints of story woven into it. It leaves you with the responsibility to figure out what is going on.

I think some of the key elements to telling a good story in a videogame have to do with how the gameplay affects emotion. Ack brought up Silent Hill 2. The control you have over your character is kind of awful in that game and in other early survival horror games like Resident Evil 1 & 2. Yet, the bad controls really play into the horror aspect. You have less control. You can't do a spinning jump and fire Contra style "S" shot in all directions to clear your path. You feel more helpless, which fits perfectly with a feeling of fear and dread, which is what Silent Hill 2 wants you to feel. They want you to dread that damn radio noise because it means another fight that you are ill equiped for is about to happen.

The focus on gameplay has emphasized being fun for a long time now. I think that fun factor just doesn't fit into a lot of storylines though. You can't be as graceful as a Street Fighter character when you are supposed to be an ordinary guy like in Silent Hill. You can't spend 10 hours collecting chickens for some old lady in the village while Ganon is busy raping princess Zelda and burning down the countryside. So many games just alternate between serious story and fun gameplay and that just doesn't create a cohesive experience. You play a little bit of a fun game, then you watch a little bit of a movie, then you play a little bit more, then you watch a little more movie. That was cool in Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy VII when we hadn't really seen games strive for anything so cinematic before, but for this medium to really grow up we've got to evolve past that to something where the game and the story are one cohesive whole that allows videogames to tell a story in a way that only a videogame can.
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J T
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by J T »

^ Cliff Notes version of myself:

Gameplay and Narrative are at odds with each other.

Shadow of the Colossus is legendary and doesn't have this problem.

Games need to develop their own method of storytelling instead of relying on movie-like cutscenes.


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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by REPO Man »

Personally, I'd love to see the Wii's successor offer a virtual-reality experience, which is basically what the Wii is, albeit without the VR helmet.

In fact, one could, in theory, make a VR system out of a Wii. The helmet is nothing more than two screens (one for each eye) and possibly a sound system. And the screens can potentially be altered to allow for stereoscopic 3D (I saw something about cellophane and LCD screens), in theory.

All that could make for a new and better Wii-based experience, especially if the Wii's successor is done with HD graphics and more than enough power to compete hardware-wise with its rival consoles.
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

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I won't say that I don't want to see a set of next-gen consoles, but I can say at this point I probably won't bother purchasing any of them. As much time as I've spent with my 360, it has felt like somewhat of a regurgitated experience. Better looking games in HD, almost exactly the same gameplay as the PS2/GCN/Xbox generation.

It's sad to say, but 360 achievements played a huge part in my gaming over the last few years. I got addicted to the meta-game and not so much the games themselves. I've quit that habit now, and find myself playing older stuff more often.

I can't keep up with the $60 releases any more, especially when I can go get some kick ass PS2 or original Xbox game for $5 that brings me just as much gaming joy. Trust me, I'm not downplaying the current state of gaming. I still buy some new releases. It might just be that I'm getting old, and don't feel the need to keep up step-by-step with the industry anymore. I think games reached a point long ago for me that was "good enough".
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J T
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by J T »

Flak Beard wrote: It's sad to say, but 360 achievements played a huge part in my gaming over the last few years. I got addicted to the meta-game and not so much the games themselves. I've quit that habit now, and find myself playing older stuff more often.
Hm, I think I understand what I don't like about achievements now. Thanks for posting that. I never really thought about it, but they do take you out of the game storyline. I think they are fine for a game like Street Fighter IV, where the game is all about improving your skill and the story is just an afterthought, but a story driven game really has no business using achievements. They just remind you that you're playing a game and pull you out of the story, or get you focused on silly side quests and mini-games that divert from the overall experience.
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by Flak Beard »

J T wrote:Hm, I think I understand what I don't like about achievements now. Thanks for posting that. I never really thought about it, but they do take you out of the game storyline. I think they are fine for a game like Street Fighter IV, where the game is all about improving your skill and the story is just an afterthought, but a story driven game really has no business using achievements. They just remind you that you're playing a game and pull you out of the story, or get you focused on silly side quests and mini-games that divert from the overall experience.
I've never been much for game stories any way. I usually forget what's going on half way through because I don't pay attention and just want to get to the gameplay. I think that is why I like SHMUPs so much, because they gratify almost instantly. Even in RPGs, things like customization really keep me going more so than story. I like to see how powerful I can make my characters.

About achievements, you're right they do distract you. I would often find myself looking at an achievement list before starting a game, and then focusing on them the whole time as opposed to just playing and enjoying the game freely. It could feel more like work than play, and almost like an obligation to finish. I'm glad I was able to shake the habit, because now I can put a game down when I feel like it instead of having that need to get all the points I can.
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Re: I don't want a next generation of gaming consoles

Post by Gamerforlife »

Anayo wrote:
As for Zelda, I think the franchise represents some of the WORST story telling in the entire industry. Every game just boils down to Link fights Ganon, saves Zelda and ultimately everything else in the story just doesn't matter. Nothing has really changed since the original Zelda on the NES
In Majora's Mask, Link is stuck with Tatl the fairy. Tatl acts condescending and stuck up, bossing Link around even though she's a pipsqueak Link could squish if he felt like it. Realizing they have to depend on each other, Tatl apologizes and tries to be nice to Link. They go through various struggles and eventually forget to snap at each other. By the time the game is over Tatl has warmed up to Link and they're friends.

A formula roughly equivalent to this is followed in Twilight Princess with Midna, with some subtle differences.

Stuff like this is the reason Charles' Dickens "A Christmas Carol" has aged so well. Ebeneezer Scrooge starts out greedy, then by the end of the story he's generous.

I think abstract silly games are great when they embrace themselves as such. Like Contra. You never reload your weapon. Touching an enemy's ankle causes you to spawl over dead. It's ridiculous and unbelievable and fun as hell.

What bothers me is games that have cut scenes and characters in them that pretend to be something more significant than Contra, but can't exhibit characters that aren't even as deep as Ebeneezer Scrooge. If you ask me, this is what keeps games from being more than immature kids' toys.
Memorable characters? In a Zelda game? Are you serious? Midna was absolutely, completely lame in Twilight Princess. And what purprose did she really serve in the game? You beat the game, Link is with Zelda, Ganon has been revealed as the big villain and is killed and things are status quo once again. Please, people cannot seriously think Zelda games represent good story telling in video games. They're amateurish at best.

And no story is not the thing that will help the gaming industry mature. There are already games that can do good stories and there are other mediums that are more well known for story telling like books, movies, tv series. Interactivity and gameplay are the ONLY things that make video games stand out in the entertainment world. Game makers need to concern themselves with innovating there, and that does mean getting away from the unrealistic, nonsensical gameplay that characterizes most games.

Personally, I think the topic creator's vewpoint is exactly what is wrong with games today. Everybody is so pretentious now and wants to deliver memorable stories. Meanwhile, gameplay has not been making ANY strides forward for quite some time now. Everything is getting prettier, stories are getting more involved, but gameplay innovation. REAL gameplay innovation, not gimmicks is not happening. The industry is stagnating.

I love a good story sure, but I can get that from so many other entertainment mediums. I want the gaming industry to focus more on moving gameplay forward. I don't care how pretty your game is or how amazing your story is, how is the gameplay?

It's why I hate games like Odin Sphere. They worked so hard on telling a good story and giving us really artsy visuals, but the gameplay? Pure crap. And when you can't bring it in the gameplay department, you fail as a video game no matter how good your story is or how pretty your graphics are
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