Why do you choose RPG...?

[Original_Name]

I sort of feel like immersion is the whole POINT of telling a story via a video game from an artistic standpoint, because immersion is one of the few things video games can do which other mediums simply cannot.

what do you believe is the factor that immerses you in a game?

The ability to make real decisions which genuinely effect the world you inhabit. Be they realistically minute, or extravagant. The feeling that the outcome of your experience wasn't completely linear. That's the strength that video games have over every other work of art: they are different for everyone. Movies are what they are; no amount of yelling or wiggling about in your seat will change the cinema onscreen. Unfortunately, I feel that many video games are entirely too focused on emulating movies, and while I do find it enjoyable in many circumstances, I don't comprehend why such artistically capable minds desired to deliver an experience completely possible in cinema in the form of a video game. For instance, if you felt emotional when Aerith died in Final Fantasy VII, that experience was drawn from cinema; not from any level of interactivity. Not only is that particular moment played in a cut-scene, but there is absolutely nothing the player can do, or even feels that he could have done to prevent it; not event the vaguest illusion of the ability to do so. That's not to say I didn't love Final Fantasy VII, it's one of my favorite games ever, but it hardly does a thing to qualify video games as art. I feel that a truly immersive game should deliver that feeling of sadness because the player knows (or at least believes) that the outcome of a situation came from the consequence of his own actions. Or a feeling of helplessness brought on from being able to manipulate many parts of their environment, but not being able to prevent a certain thing from happening despite their power and wits. There is something fascinating about having average power and doing something incredible from your own wits, just as there is something fascinating about having incredible power, but finding that manipulating the smallest thing within the realm you exist made the most difference of all. That feeling is magnified by a trillion times when you actually feel like it was YOU who did those things.

[vejita]

I think rpgs appeal to certain people who like to be anal-retentive about some things... like a sort of compulsion. On top of that there is a long story, an investment in the characters (if it's a good story), and a chance to see a world from many perspectives (well, that depends on the rpg). I am getting very tired of the 17yr-old superhuman hero bit, which is why I also like the Elder Scrolls games or any rpg that allows a customizable character.

As for micro-accomplishments, that's a plus for me. I don't mind a linear rpg, but I prefer one that lets you run off and level in areas that are unrelated at the time or appropriate for level 50... I like leveling somewhere in the beginning for a long time and then going through the game like a knife through butter (Pokemon...)

I admit I have to turn my brain off a bit so that I don't reveal to myself everything that will happen. "Oh, they're going to find out he's really the bad guy, but I already figured that out. Now I'm bored." It's the same if I'm reading a mystery novel- I don't like reading them anymore because I usually figure everything out way beforehand and it loses its "freshness." There has to be something else in the game, such as good gameplay (as in Star Ocean 3- HORRIBLE, but the gameplay was damn fun.)

[Gamerforlife]

Discarding skills doesn't make you think more than any other rpg. ALL rpgs require you to use certain skills for cerain situations and ALL rpgs require you to diversity your party. You're always going to need a physical fighter, a magic user, a healer, etc, etc. So no, Nocturne is no more special than any other rpg. The only thing discarding skills in Nocturne does is screw you over because the next area may have an enemy that the skill you discarded would have been very useful against. Since you have no way of knowing what the enemies in a new area are going to be like, the discard feature is CHEAP and also kills your argument about combat being about preparation. Plus, no rpg I have played allows you be a god as you put in, until you're near the end of the game. No rpg hands you every skill in the game right from the get go so your argument doesn't make sense.

Also, again going back to your idea that combat is all about "preparation". Sometimes you need certain monsters in your party for certain fights. Unfortunately, this requires you to either capture a monster, which is a process that is often based on LUCK or try and create one, which is also a RANDOM process unless you have a strategy guide or faq. Skill only gets you so far in Nocturne, the other fifty percent of it is luck. This includes how a battle can go for or against you based on RANDOM factors like enemy initiative in combat or one of your party members RANDOMLY missing an attack, which by the way is not usually a big deal in other rpgs because the designers actually have enough intelligence to know that you can't harshly punish a player for something out of their control, but a missed attack or enemy initiative in Nocturne can KILL you.

Oh, and one more thing. Let me not forget how the game RANDOMLY throws more enemies at you after you win a battle, sometimes more than once. How the hell do you prepare for that? It's completely random and sometimes you'll lose a fight like this because you didn't have enough health and resources for THREE back to back battles that you didn't know were coming.

Shin Megami Nocturne is a game that pretends to be challenging by just being cheesy(like most so called hardcore games unfortunately)and honestly, it does hardly anything that you haven't seen done better in other rpgs. It's only claim to fame is its style and cheap difficulty level.

And for the record, the whole "Final Fantasy is so easy" argument is tired, cliche and ignorant and not surprisingly usually comes from people who don't put much time into them. Final Fantasy games always have optional challenges, enemies and bosses that are FAR more challenging than the game's end boss. If you're not getting challenged by an FF game, it's because you weren't looking for a challenge in the first place. Try and do EVERYTHING in Final Fantasy 12 and come back and tell me how easy it is after you get destroyed by bosses with instant kill attacks, multiples status effect attacks and bosses that have enough health to keep you fighting them for over an hour.

EDIT: Not to mention regular and hidden enemies in each area that are higher level than you and very powerful if you have the guts to try and take them on

Most RPGs only require you to attack. Over and over again. And then attack some more. Magic? Magic often does only slightly more damage than attacking, which costs nothing. Exploiting weaknesses? Hardly does enough damage to balance out using MP restoring items, and you can probably make up the difference by using Crit Rate increasing equipment.

Having to drop skills does make you think strategically. When you have to choose between Megido and Marukunda, that's a pretty tough choice. Megido is a powerful, but costly attack. Marukunda will lower the defense of all your enemies, and in SMT, debuffs against enemies actually matter, unlike every other RPG under the sun. What is going to benefit you? You have to make a sacrifice. Other RPGs just allow you to obtain a wall of skills, many of which will never even be cast.

Fusion is only slightly based on luck. There is a chance - a very small chance, that the fusion may fail. Otherwise, fusion is all about discovering patterns. Fury + Megami will always yield a Diety. Lady + Fury will always make a Vile. This isn't luck - this is simply figuring out what combination will give you want result you want. It simply requires you to study. Not to mention you are often told what you will get before you fuse a demon - it's not like you are fusing blind.

As for missing attacks, having your weakness exploited, etc - it's something that you have to prepare for. I haven't seen to many cases where attacking an enemy will miss when you know its going to hit. You have to be aware of what enemies are more likely to dodge. You have to be aware of what enemies have what skills. What's more, you have skills that make it harder for enemies to dodge, and other such things. "other rpgs because the designers actually have enough intelligence to know that you can't harshly punish a player for something out of their control" HAH! They sure as hell don't have enough intelligence to make every skill I learn do anything worth a shit! Debuffs in RPGs are almost universally useless, and the only reason I can say 'almost' is because of SMT. Reducing an enemies defense in a FF is a wasted move. In SMT, it's a smart one.

SMT's claim to fame is that every skill has a purpose, you are rewarded for exploiting weaknesses, and you are punished for not being aware of your own.

"Try and do EVERYTHING in Final Fantasy 12 and come back and tell me how easy it is after you get destroyed by bosses with instant kill attacks, multiples status effect attacks and bosses that have enough health to keep you fighting them for over an hour."

Huh huh huh. You say - funny thing. I couldn't even do one thing in FF12 before I decided that game was an utter train wreck. I did, however, kill a few of the weapons in FF7, and this is what I can tell you about them - utterly pointless. They are side-quests, and pointless side-quests at that. The only reason I do side-quests is for character development, to learn more of the story, etc. The only character development the secret bosses in a FF has is "Here's a weapon you DIDN'T NEED to kill the final boss who is FAR WEAKER THAN THE BOSS YOU JUST KILLED!"

What's more, the fights aren't HARD. They are just LONG. All you have to do is stock-pile enough potions and shit, attack one round, and heal the next. It's usually a very, VERY simple pattern that you just have to have the patience to sit though. I don't recall the battles in SMT being very long. Very hard, yes, but not long.

Oh yeah, I forgot this: "Plus, no rpg I have played allows you be a god as you put in, until you're near the end of the game."

So, you're telling me the game starts out hard and becomes a push-over by the end?
HOW ANTI-CLIMATIC! Shouldn't the final battles of the game be the HARDEST battles of the game? How can you excuse such awful design?

A lot of these statements are false because you're making generalizations about the genre that aren't true to make Nocturne seem like a better game than it is. I've NEVER played an rpg where I can just attack over and over throughout the whole game. And I've played many rpgs where magic does BIG damage on certain enemies. More than enough to offset the cost of casting. Again Final Fantasy games come to mind. I don't know what kind of crappy rpgs you're playing.

Debuffs are also very useful in many rpgs I've played and there are certainly rpgs out there where most of your skills have a purpose. Some fights in Final Fantasy games REQUIRE using buffs or debuffs to have any chance at winning and I can usually find a use for many of the skills present in those games. Of course, I go the distance in Final Fantasy games and seek out every challenge the developers put in, which will really require you to make the most out of every ability you have.

Nocturne does NOT make you think strategically. Since you have no idea what your enemies are going to be like in a new area, there is ZERO strategy in deciding what to keep or discard. Oh crap, I discarded that attack the enemies in this area are weak to. Too bad I had NO WAY of knowing that. Oh well, that skill is PERMANENTLY gone now. Strategy usually implies knowing what you're enemy will do and preparing. In Nocturne, you find out AFTER you have dropped a skill and then there is no way to get it back. Can't form a strategy around a certain skill after it's permanently gone. So basically, your strategy is try to make due with whatever you're stuck with, assuming you can

Most sidequests in Final Fantasy games are indeed tied into the story and flesh it out more. Granted some are just there for fun and challenge too, but that's not a hard and fast rule. And honestly, you can't claim to love challenging rpgs and then say you won't do any extra challenges in a Final Fantasy solely for the sake of the challenge. You're contradicting yourself. That's like when a reviewer complains a game is too easy having never touched hard difficulty.

And no, there are no simple patterns of simply attacking and healing for taking out the harder enemies and bosses in FF12. Usually, you'll have to switch up your strategies multiple times mid fight as you react to what the enemy is doing. Not that you would know having not really played it. Now there's a game that allows for REAL strategy. Far more ways to approach battle in that game than in Nocturne, which has a sort of rock, paper, scissors approach to combat.

And being a god at the end of most rpgs usually requires you to spend time finding items, doing side quests and levelling. I just meant that you don't usually have the ability to actually get everything you need to power up til the end of the game. At which point, you could make the final boss a cakewalk, but only if you put in the time and effort to get stronger. If it's anti-climactic then, it's because you made it that way. Typically the climactic aspect of the end of an rpg is more to do with the story than the actual final battle anyway. And not every rpg story needs to end with a battle against a super, god like enemy. Sometimes it's not about how strong the final enemy is, but how that enemy ties into the story's resolution

Well anyway, this really just comes down to difference of opinion and based on my experiences with Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga, it is my opinion that ShinMegaten games are overrated by some rpg fans and deserve their cult status here in the west while better rpgs(from companies like Nippon Ichi and Square/Enix)get more attention

[RemyC]

I sort of feel like immersion is the whole POINT of telling a story via a video game from an artistic standpoint, because immersion is one of the few things video games can do which other mediums simply cannot.

what do you believe is the factor that immerses you in a game?

The ability to make real decisions which genuinely effect the world you inhabit. Be they realistically minute, or extravagant. The feeling that the outcome of your experience wasn't completely linear[...] I feel that a truly immersive game should deliver that feeling of sadness because the player knows (or at least believes) that the outcome of a situation came from the consequence of his own actions. Or a feeling of helplessness brought on from being able to manipulate many parts of their environment, but not being able to prevent a certain thing from happening despite their power and wits. That feeling is magnified by a trillion times when you actually feel like it was YOU who did those things.

Can't this be said about an incredibly difficult game? Regardless of your abilities, you simply couldn't defeat the enemy, so now you have a game over...now the world is dominated by some evil power, or whatever.

[the7k]

Well anyway, this really just comes down to difference of opinion and based on my experiences with Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga, it is my opinion that ShinMegaten games are overrated by some rpg fans and deserve their cult status here in the west while better rpgs(from companies like Nippon Ichi and Square/Enix)get more attention

Now that is a well-formed argument. Square Enix games get more attention because they are better RPGs. I can't argue with that.

Let me go sell my copies of Yakuza and Valkyria Chronicles so I can pick up some of the Grand Theft Auto and Sonic games I missed. I should also sell all of my First Person Shooters like Timesplitters - after all, no First Person Shooter is more praised than Half-Life 2, or more purchased than Halo 3.

I'll agree that this is mostly opinion, but the better game gets more attention? C'mon - that is the weakest of weak arguments out there. The game that gets the most attention is the game that resonates most with the common man. You know? The Lowest Common Denominator. The Great Unwashed. The Plebs. The Peons. The Riffraff. The Herd. The Sheep.

[Original_Name]

Can't this be said about an incredibly difficult game? Regardless of your abilities, you simply couldn't defeat the enemy, so now you have a game over...now the world is dominated by some evil power, or whatever.

I'm not quite sure if I'd register that as freedom, though. I mean to say that I enjoy a simulated universe in the more scientific sense, one in which there is a general fate to be shared (i.e. you will be born, and you will die; the universe was created, and will inevitably eventually die), but individual paths are not preset. For instance, imagine in a game such as the Elder Scrolls series, wherein there are tons and tons of books to be read. Say maybe in a video game, you can do whatever you want without major plot-driven linearities, but you notice these weird things going on in your world, such as these bizarre portals opening up in the sky, or something. You say, "Hey, I wonder if those are supposed to be a part of this world", so you go and find a book on astrology or something, and you find out what those things REALLY are, and you find out that they're disastrous, and that someone is harnessing their power for something ridiculous that must be stopped, or whatever (pretty stupid plot, but I just made it up in like, thirty seconds). You could say, "I should go put and end to this now", or maybe just don't do anything and go about slaughtering little furry things in the woods or whatever you tend to do with your time. If you choose the former, you might feel contempt for the people who called you crazy when you said, "Hey, help me stop the guy who's trying to open up the sky and kill us all!" or feel guilty when you've realized that you've waited too long to start and millions have died already from your inaction.

And what I meant about not being able to stop something because you're not strong enough was more along the lines of implementing moments of fate into otherwise open-world experiences. Where you go in and try everything you can, but you've simply been outsmarted by the computer/villain/whatever without it feeling cheap and scripted. Not just, "I need to level up some more".

[randombullseye]

I like RPGs because its like another world you can go into.

Also arguments on the internet guys, really? Opinions, we all have them.

[Dylan]

I like RPGs because its like another world you can go into.

Also arguments on the internet guys, really? Opinions, we all have them.

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I saw an argument on the internet.

[RemyC]

Can't this be said about an incredibly difficult game? Regardless of your abilities, you simply couldn't defeat the enemy, so now you have a game over...now the world is dominated by some evil power, or whatever.

I'm not quite sure if I'd register that as freedom, though. I mean to say that I enjoy a simulated universe in the more scientific sense, one in which there is a general fate to be shared (i.e. you will be born, and you will die; the universe was created, and will inevitably eventually die), but individual paths are not preset.

And what I meant about not being able to stop something because you're not strong enough was more along the lines of implementing moments of fate into otherwise open-world experiences. Where you go in and try everything you can, but you've simply been outsmarted by the computer/villain/whatever without it feeling cheap and scripted. Not just, "I need to level up some more".

I've never played an elder scrolls game, but I devoted a fair bit of time to Fable, and playing through it as both good and evil. I came to the conclusion that it would take up WAYYY too much memory for a game like that to feel, "real". I can be an evil monster the entire game, then at the last minute walk around town waving around a trophy, and flirting with people to instantaneously become a good hero.
I'd rather opt for a "linear" game that has been meticulously designed. Their are too many RPG's that leave me feeling as if I'm out living my enemies, and not defeating them.

I like RPGs because its like another world you can go into.

Also arguments on the internet guys, really? Opinions, we all have them.

Hahaha. Yeah. Everyone saying, "I like ____." is the best way to have a discussion.

[Erik_Twice]

I think there are two problems with sandboxing. The first one is that freedom is reallistically boring. Let's be frank, there are no going to be complex moral choices in a sandbox game. You either kill for no reason or let them be.

The second problem is that a set-in-stone reputation system is a bit harsh on the player leading to "I blow up Megaton and then give water to a man so I'm good".

I think game developers would make better games by adding more interesting choices instead of more freedom.