Why? Why do this to yourself?

[lost_within]

Well if you're me, you don't give two shits because the ones who generally do get pregnant are stupid cunts that have it coming.

However, I have had close friends of mine get pregnant, it's not like they meant to, its just one of those things that comes with sex.

I didnt even read any further than this comment for this reason...I care...ALOT, cause I am sick of that BS coming out of my check to take care of someones kids that screwed their life up so bad they cant even work fast food.

Yes, of course...some people do take care of their kids, but based off that "stupid c***s" line...I figured you ment just the ones that you see on Maury going..." Yep I am 13 and Nope I dont know who my baby daddy is, and I dont care"

[MrPopo]

My wife is 39 1/2 weeks pregnant and is due with our first child (a boy) on Monday (if he's actually on time!).

We met in college and married when we were in our early 20s. We've been married seven years during which time she's been taking the pill. We waited to have kids because we decided it would be irresponsible to have kids until we felt relatively financially stable - so we never even entertained the idea with any seriousness until I finished my education, got a good job, bought a house, etc. But now we feel about as ready as we can be.

Those of you with the knee-jerk reactions to pregnancy/children are not really appreciating the scope of circumstances under which people have kids. For example, that chart certainly can't encompass or explain my own thinking about why I want kids. It might just boil down to how your mind/body matures as you age (I'll be 30 later this year), how your relationship with your partner evolves, how your circumstances change, etc. - I know I certainly had no serious interest in kids until about 2-3 years ago.

Congratulations! Most of my coworkers are in the mid-20's to early-30's range, so a lot are starting to have kids. I definately think raising kids can be great, and lots of people can be great parents. Even the 17 year old who slipped up one night can end up being a good mom if she responds to the event by maturing. My biggest issue is that far too many people of that age simply do not mature, and it harms the kids. The inability to truly understand that you are directly responsible for how the child turns out is what makes my blood boil. You, on the other hand, I'm sure will make a great dad, even though the kid's first memories will probably be a series of pictures relating to the word "bump".

[marurun]

I worry about the children raised by parents who think having children is a game. They will enter society likely ill-prepared.

I also get frustrated by the tax breaks offered to parents. On the one hand I know it's expensive to raise children and responsible parents could probably use the help, but on the other hand you have welfare mamas having babies to increase their welfare check and families with like 6 kids who don't pay anything in taxes toward public education while the childless couples and singles foot the public education tax bill.

I wish there was some way to find some kind of equity. I guess in my mind the safest solution is to simply eliminate tax and welfare benefits for parents and develop a system whereby there are benefits which can be utilized only for the children. For example reduced health care costs for children or discounts on child care goods and services so that parents have assistance with their child rearing but nothing else.

[vejita]

I like that there are many different responses to this whole "problem," and as a girl I've gone through many emotional changes on the subject of children- I am VERY aware of my biological clock right now, as some would call it "baby fever," but during high school and just a few years ago I figured I would never reproduce. On one hand I felt obligated not to do it, for fear of passing down some problems, and on the other hand I figured there are enough better people in the world than me to raise kids. Plus there's the whole scary shit of I HAVE SOMETHING GROWING INSIDE ME AND IT WILL PROBABLY TEAR MY INSIDES OUT, "A L I E N S" style. I also figured I wouldn't live past 30, I'd kill myself if I ever got too fat, and I'd never marry and live alone in a rented apartment.

Buuuuuuuut.... I can't say how my life will end up now. The only plan I have is to be adaptable and tolerant of all types of situations and people- and that includes a family. I'm scared to hell I will end up like my parents, but I realize that means I care too much what happens to not try and do better.

As far as women's rights go, most people (men and women) can shove it. Chemically and socially women are prepared (but not guaranteed) to be better nurturers, and women's rights were SUPPOSED to be about choice. I don't think there is anything inherently bad about young girls having kids but it is certainly harder in this society, mainly because of taboo and poverty.

And as for bad parents making bad children, that's such a load of shit- so many people I know have had really hard lives and are still good people, but it helps that they were exposed to some goodness in their life to even have hope for the future, even if the influences were from magazines or TV. Why do people make a big deal out of giving a crap about "breeding?" And why use that word, as though you're referring to cattle or dogs? Isn't it a bit too personal to say someone has no right to have a child? Shit happens, kids happen. Be kind or generous in some way, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

</rant?>

[the7k]

Congrats, dsheinem!

I don't think anyone is really talking about people in your situation, though. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this - you are prepared both mentally and financially.

I think what we are all really worried about are people like this:

I know for a damn fact that I had about 10 of these types of girls in my high school. They look at raising a kid like it won't be any worse than a goldfish.

Hell, I'm in my mid-twenties, and I know that if I have a kid, everyone in that situation would be boned. I can hardly even take care of myself.

[MrPopo]

And as for bad parents making bad children, that's such a load of shit- so many people I know have had really hard lives and are still good people, but it helps that they were exposed to some goodness in their life to even have hope for the future, even if the influences were from magazines or TV.

Living a hard life is not the same thing as having bad parents. Good parents create an environment for children in which they can feel secure to grow and experience the world. That doesn't mean they aren't struggling to make ends meet. And yes, you can still turn out ok even if you have bad parents. But it's a long, uphill battle. Many of these kids will need professional care in their later years to get to an emotionally healthy state.

Isn't it a bit too personal to say someone has no right to have a child?

As a society we have determined that anyone can be involved in the creation of a life and subsequently mold and shape that life's character and emotional well-being (barring the gross abuse that causes CPS to step in). That child will then go out into the world, find people with similar life experiences and perpetuate them upon their children. Or, to put it more bluntly, we have screwed up people getting together with other screwed up people and raising screwed up kids, who then raise their own screwed up kids.

[marurun]

You have to have a license to drive a car, in part because a car is a fast-moving, 1-ton chunk of metal and plastic that can cause massive harm and loss of life if used improperly. Yet we'll let anyone have and raise a child, regardless of all the legal (or quasi-legal) ways there are to screw up their futures. I realize there are lots of rights issues and practical issues that make regulating child birth both complicated and offensive (in the eyes of many), but it makes me wonder if this open view of the "right to bear children" doesn't create some problems of its own. I am personally conflicted over this issue and find it hard to pick a solid stand on the issue, but sometimes I find myself saying to myself that there ought to be a license requirement to bear children.

Let me use examples from my own life, here. I'm not stereotyping here, BTW, I'm just relating what I have personally witnessed.

In one example you have the mothers who yell at their kids when they're in the store. The kids are being kids, acting developmentally appropriately for their age, yet the parents yell at them whenever they say something. It's no wonder the kids are annoying. The only way they can get attention is to make the mom yell at them. The only examples I can think of at the moment involve young (20 - 28) black women with little kids who are probably between 4 and 9 years old. In one case the mom in question didn't open her mouth to talk to her kids in any other tone of voice than an angry yell. In another case the woman was yelling at her kids occasionally in between bouts of ignoring them completely to talk on her cell phone. I know shopping with kids is stressful, especially at Wal-Mart, but seriously...

In another example, my wife and I were eating at a Ruby Tuesdays. At a nearby table a young woman (mid 20's probably) and a slightly older woman (late 20s, early 30s, overweight), both black, were eating with a little girl. The girl was chattering a little and would occasionally stand up on the seat and mock pummel her mom's (?) shoulder. One I heard the mom say in a calm voice, "What have I told you about hitting too hard?", to which the little girl responded by stopping the pummeling, giving her mom (?) a kiss, saying something cute, and returning to the pummeling. It was clear the mom wasn't ignoring the little girl and they were having appropriate (AFAIK) interactions in between conversation between the two adults.

In another example, I was recently at Target. There was a mom there, probably late 20's, with a little girl and a little boy in a 2-seat stroller (not side by side but front and back). The boy was younger and very quiet but the little girl was yammering up a storm. But she wasn't too loud and she wasn't obnoxious and the mother was determined to keep up a conversation with the child. Apparently they were going boating because the little girl was responding to half her mothers questions with an excited "Fishing!". The parent and child were in constant communication in a positive fashion.

I can guarantee that the children who experience these more positive, ongoing interactions will have an easier time socializing and developing into responsible, contributing members of society, where the children who have infrequent and negative parental interactions will likely have much greater difficulty achieving the same goal. Not all the children with positive interactions will succeed and not all the children with negative interactions will fail, but you can bet that the numbers will be heavily skewed one way in one case and another way in the other.

When children are treated as pests they will learn that children are pests, a curse and a consequence instead of a thoughtful responsibility, a burden rather than an occasional (at the very least) joy. Children who are treated as though they have value will grow up with those values.

[Mozgus]

And as for bad parents making bad children, that's such a load of shit- so many people I know have had really hard lives and are still good people, but it helps that they were exposed to some goodness in their life to even have hope for the future, even if the influences were from magazines or TV.

I'll just throw it out there that my parents, while providing food and shelter just fine, absolutely refused to raise me in any way. I was constantly told to leave them alone, or shut up. They never imparted any wisdom to me. Never learned a skill from them. To this day, when someone asks me why I'm quiet, I can only answer that I speak when spoken to. It's a glitch I've made very little progress with over 7 years or so of fighting it.

My parents were generally too busy fighting with each other, sometimes physically, breaking shit, cheating on each other (as in, I see my mom fucking a strange guy on our couch when I'm 10, and other stories), drug problems including cocaine and crack which I personally stumbled upon, and of course literally telling me it's my fault they're getting a divorce. That sent me into a pretty crazy destructive and bullying phase for all of 7th grade.

So, I never formed any real bond with either parent. It seems to be a recurring pattern in our bloodline to collectively look like a family to the outside world, but inside, none of us care about each other in any way. It is rather frustrating and hopeless because you never hear about a successful person that DIDN'T have a supporting family.

Now, on to my point, you are very correct. Despite all of the above, I was known as the good kid in the neighborhood. All the other kids, who seemed quite loved by their parents, (or at least whatever hugs represent. I recall my mom hugging me just once in my entire life, and she was drunk and I was was terrified. I half-expected a knife to go into my back.) were constantly getting into trouble. For some reason, while I wasn't raised at all, or held to any set of rules, I never felt the need to do stupid typical teenager shit, like stealing, and drinking, and pot, and chasing tail. The neighbors on more than one account have flat out told me that they wish I was their kid, and that they're sorry my parents are so fucked up.

You are right about influences. All I really know about normal family situations are from bullshit TV and the observations I've made of other people. When I see some mopey eyed mommy witnessing her daughter graduating from high school, I can't even process the fucking logistics behind that. It makes no sense to me, but I do get envious of that kind of attention.

So that leaves me at the age of 24, and my only real disorder is that I'm very cynical, or so I'm constantly told. I think I made out pretty well considering the circumstances. I cut off all ties with my mother about 9 months ago, and I think I've grown stronger now than I have in the last 9 months. Removing her from my life, and hopefully over time from my memory, has been one of the proudest moments in my life actually. She dared me to do this for as long as I can remember, and it bit her in the ass. I've kept absolutely no documents, pictures or video of my earlier years, either. Subsequently I had to remove ties with everyone else on her side of the tree that she's convinced I'm an evil monster with her fucking ridiculous propoganda (grandparents, aunt, sisters), but again, I feel no remorse from any of it, which speaks volumes about the complete lack of normal family bonds, doesn't it?

So yeah, two shit parents can make a good kid, but they deserve absolutely no credit for it, except for serving as a great example of what the child should avoid becoming.