Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

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Ack
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by Ack »

jfrost wrote:
Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:English is one of only a few languages that tries to describe every facet, while most foreign ones (French, Chinese etc...) only give you just what you need without any hints.
I don't really get what you meant here.

General consensus is that English is not a very difficult language to learn at all. The complex part is pronunciation, since there seems to be no rule about what is the correct way to say a word -- that is, either you know the word or you don't, and the only way to learn it is listening to other people talk.

But sentence structure, verbs, pronouns, etc, are relatively easy.
English is considered a difficult language due to the large number of words that have multiple meanings based solely on context clues(bat), the large number of words with similar spellings and identical sounds(there, their, they're), and the large contradictions of rules(i before e except after c, except in words like neighbor, surfeit, height, seize, caffeine, etc.).

And while mispronunciations are often accepted, it's partly because certain combinations of letters can produce different sounds depending on the individual word. For instance, in feign, the ei has a sound that's very different from the sound made in codeine. Hell, compare rein and sovereign. If you pronounce it properly, it should sound more like you were saying "rain" and "soverin."
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

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I may learn Japanese someday mainly for purpose of playing import titles like RPG's.. but it won't be for awhile... 8)
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by Original_Name »

Well actually, I was planning to take Japanese anyway, this thread was more created in light of the dozens of awesome-looking RPG's that never made it over to America because of Bernie Stolar. Thank you for the warning, though... looks like a fucking insane language to learn. I might reconsider my choice of language, unfortunately.

A quick question, though - aren't most of these games written in Kanji? I might just focus on one of their alphabets if that's all I need. I don't really care very much about speaking the language fluently, or even vocally; I just want to be able to read it.
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

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Ack wrote:
jfrost wrote:
Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:English is one of only a few languages that tries to describe every facet, while most foreign ones (French, Chinese etc...) only give you just what you need without any hints.
I don't really get what you meant here.

General consensus is that English is not a very difficult language to learn at all. The complex part is pronunciation, since there seems to be no rule about what is the correct way to say a word -- that is, either you know the word or you don't, and the only way to learn it is listening to other people talk.

But sentence structure, verbs, pronouns, etc, are relatively easy.
English is considered a difficult language due to the large number of words that have multiple meanings based solely on context clues(bat), the large number of words with similar spellings and identical sounds(there, their, they're), and the large contradictions of rules(i before e except after c, except in words like neighbor, surfeit, height, seize, caffeine, etc.).
Really, these are not big difficulties at all. Every language has a number of homonyms. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least ten in Portuguese.

I'll grant that English grammar is complex. But it's very manageable compared to other languages. As you said, the hard part is the fact that there seems to be no consistency in spelling in relation to speaking. However, with very little reading you can dispel many doubts, which is not true of many other languages, which require deeper knowledge of the language before attempting proper reading or writing (I reckon that's how Japanese is).
And while mispronunciations are often accepted, it's partly because certain combinations of letters can produce different sounds depending on the individual word. For instance, in feign, the ei has a sound that's very different from the sound made in codeine. Hell, compare rein and sovereign. If you pronounce it properly, it should sound more like you were saying "rain" and "soverin."
Yes, as I said pronunciation is relatively difficult, since the language doesn't seem to be constant. But that's a relatively small problem. By just reading a word you can't know how it is pronounced, etc.

But, comparing to Portuguese, notice that English mostly doesn't have verb inflections. Each verb is almost always the same, the time varies according only to terms around it. In Portuguese, you have different verb inflections for present, past perfect, past imperfect, past more-than-perfect (yes, that's the name of the verbal conjugation), future perfect, future of the past, present subjunctive, past subjunctive, future subjunctive... not to mention inflections that English does have, like present continuous.

In English, nouns do not have gender inflections. There are no graphic accents (OK, this might or might not be a complication). English sentences always have subjects, making them comparatively easier (in Portuguese, subjects can be null). There are no noun or adjective inflections. Articles, which do not have number inflections, can be omitted much more often. I could go on, but I think this is enough to show that English is not too complex.

Sure, if you go deeper on grammar, you're always going to find complicating factors. Generally, however, English's structure is pretty straightforward. And this is good. English is a much more flexible language due to this.
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

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I have been studying Japanese on and off since about 2006. I started on my own for fun with "Japanese: the Fast and Fun Way" and "Japanese Verbs: Saying What you Mean". Since I was homeschooled, I had the flexibility of using Rosetta Stone Japanese for my high school language credits, then for kanji I did volumes 1 and 2 of Basic Bonjinsha Kanji. Right now I'm studying on and off from "Breakthrough Japanese: 20 mini-lessons to Improve Conversation" and "San nen manga kanji jiten", which is a kanji learning book for Japanese 3rd graders. My kanji knowledge is somewhere up in the 530-ish territory.

If I had to offer any advice to someone who wants to study it I'd just say 1) make sure you enjoy studying it 2) don't concern yourself with how long it will take, cause it takes freaking forever 3) get a very patient Japanese friend or actually go to Japan. I got a shallow-sort-of taste of the "language immersion" thing with Rosetta Stone's speech software and I understand the biggest thing keeping me from shifting brain lobes into "Japanese mode" is that I don't really use it to interact with actual human beings who speak it, despite studying for about 3 years. (Although I think I'm OK with the kanji part, since it's hard to get the hang of those any way other than muscle memory.)
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

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Anayo wrote:I have been studying Japanese on and off since about 2006. I started on my own for fun with "Japanese: the Fast and Fun Way" and "Japanese Verbs: Saying What you Mean". Since I was homeschooled, I had the flexibility of using Rosetta Stone Japanese for my high school language credits, then for kanji I did volumes 1 and 2 of Basic Bonjinsha Kanji. Right now I'm studying on and off from "Breakthrough Japanese: 20 mini-lessons to Improve Conversation" and "San nen manga kanji jiten", which is a kanji learning book for Japanese 3rd graders. My kanji knowledge is somewhere up in the 530-ish territory.

If I had to offer any advice to someone who wants to study it I'd just say 1) make sure you enjoy studying it 2) don't concern yourself with how long it will take, cause it takes freaking forever 3) get a very patient Japanese friend or actually go to Japan. I got a shallow-sort-of taste of the "language immersion" thing with Rosetta Stone's speech software and I understand the biggest thing keeping me from shifting brain lobes into "Japanese mode" is that I don't really use it to interact with actual human beings who speak it, despite studying for about 3 years. (Although I think I'm OK with the kanji part, since it's hard to get the hang of those any way other than muscle memory.)
I'm also home schooled, and I am taking Rosetta Stone Japanese this school year starting in September. Is it any good, and how hard is it?
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by Anayo »

Rosetta Stone is a bit of a two edged sword. It's awesome for actually hearing words and sentences being spoken - I've still got Rosetta Stone voices ringing in my head with all kinds of Japanese. The down side is that it doesn't translate anything into English at all, so sometimes you'll click on something and get it right without really understanding why. I studied with a dictionary on hand. "Japanese Verbs: Saying What You Mean" helped a lot with grammar, too.
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by RCBH928 »

I might be the only one here that does not use latin letters for his first language, and I have to tell you English is EASY how do you think most people on the planet caught on? Because its so simple. I also have to tell you the worst part about it is spelling and pronunciation .
Yesterday I was watching Benjamin Button, and they say New Orleans like this "New Orlins". I thought it was New Orleens .And I thought I spoke prefect English since I am 25 and over 80% of what I took in college and school was in English, and taught by native speakers like Canadians and Americans!!

I before E except after C, I always heard that but never really got it that it was for spelling :?

As for similarities, thats fine every language has it....

I think that what is going to bite English back is the huge amounts of words. A guy learned English ten years ago will probably be surprised with some one telling him "I googled Twitter on my iPhone using cloud-computing, but the WiFi signal was down, so I had to connected it via ethernet connection" . There are simply too many new words, and the worst I hate is the "OLOGIES" put any word with ology in the end and its a new science, did you get it? ex. Getologiest is someone who gets things the first time around.

My advice for any one trying to learn a language, go to the source, do it with a real teacher that speaks it natively(I heard people speaking English taught by Indians, and I thought they were Indian while they were not, they had the words all wrong. Same thing happened with people taught by teachers from the Philippines ). Practice it , do not learn it. When your child is growing up he speaks before he goes to school then he gets things straight.

I wanted to learn Spanish, I had one course , which was really fruitful but level 2 in Berlitz was like $1300 :cry:
and there are 6-7 levels before you start speaking fluently, and a level is only a month and half long.. Thats for private, and no group classes are there due to low demand, group costs like $400.
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by RCBH928 »

hashiriya1 wrote:It's a long, hard road. You'd have to be pretty damn fluent if you want to understand RPGs. Think of how well you spoke English at age 8. That is how well your Japanese would have to be to understand a Pokemon-level RPG.

It took me years of living here, talking to people, watching Japanese movies with no subtitles, reading novels, newspapers and manga everyday to become my level of fluency. It is a 24/7 committment. After I passed Level one of the JLPT, I got cocky and stopped studying. While I never have problems anymore, it does help to know more so i can understand old texts and other dialects.

I am not trying to discourage you, just letting you know that it is not easy. There are people casually taking Japanese classes, but they never get past basic sentence structure. Good luck.


Something to inspire you:
http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/
I just had to come back and comment after I read that article, that was a really funny article! It actually made me laugh out loud!
I would've paid just to get a chance to read it, boy am I glad my curiosity got me there!
Kudos to the author, maybe he could start something like written comedy like stand up comedy.

I might give up the few hours of my life just to read that Iraqi prisoners and the Holocaust joke :d
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Re: Thanks to Bernie Stolar, I'm taking up Japanese in College!!

Post by vejita »

I've noticed that Japanese and Latin are very similar. Japanese does have some confusing inflections, but I think it is a rather simple language to learn. It is much more consistent than English, but then again English is THE MOST versatile language there is-that is why it is so popular, NOT because it's so easy to learn.

For example, the French language cannot make new open words like English can- I think the simplest but grueling part of learning the English language is memorizing the closed vocabulary, and then the funnest and more confusing part of learning English is the open vocabulary. "Closed" refers to words like "the, before, this, at, are, I," and etc. "Open" refers to... well... ever read The Jabberwocky? Now that's some fun English. Sentence structure is just rearranging concepts one should already know, but its just in a different language.

It's unfortunate how rare people are bilingual, trilingual, and so on. Whatever happened to children educated in 3 to 4 languages before they enter secondary education? We should give our brains more credit for the capacity to learn foreign things.

Oh, and just because someone can say several phrases in different languages does not mean they can "speak several languages." Fluency is not attained in one or two courses in college, where ironically they require the student to "learn" a foreign language. I know of NO ONE who took a couple of Spanish, German, Chinese, or Greek language courses and can consider themselves "learned." Sorry, I am just acquainted with several morons who picked up some phrases from TV and such and claim they know a language... it's like saying you're a scientist when you practice a dissection.
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