Anyone else think this guy is crazy?

[MrPopo]

Like vash said, you're spending too much time being critical of how it isn't "real" and ignoring the fact that it's still fun.

Video games are fun, because they are challenging. The challenge in rockband/guitar hero comes from learning the songs, and being able to play them flawlessly. If you would like to increase this challenge, therefore have more fun, wouldn't it be logical to pick up a real instrument, and spend time learning the songs that way?

Rockband/Guitar hero are literally dumbed down instruments.

I would disagree slightly on this point. Video games are not only fun because they provide a challenge. There are many other factors that can make even an unchallening game fun, like Super Princess Peach. Additionally, too much challenge can make things not fun.

With Rock Band vs. a real instrument there is a big difference in the initial payoff. With a real instrument you are keenly aware that you are a beginner, as all you can produce are scales and alternating two chord songs. With Rock Band on the easiest level you have very few notes, but the sound you hear is still the solo from Foreplay/Long Time. This ends up being more satisfying for many people. It takes a lot of dedication to get real guitar skills up to the point that you can play some of the songs you know, while with Rock Band you can stay on easy your whole life and still play everything.

Additionally, when you play Rock Band, even by yourself, you get the whole band experience. If I'm going to town on drums I've still got the guitar, bass, and vocal parts in there. If I were to instead purchase my own drum kit I now am playing solo. Yes, I can pop the song into my speakers and play in time with the music, but the difference in sound levels can be jarring.

I have a lot of respect for people who take the time to really learn how to play a real instrument well. However, I like to thing that the two can coexist. To use a less facetious argument than the FPS/gun one, I really enjoyed math through calculus and differential equations. However, when I took multi-variable calculus it stopped being fun. I was no longer intuitively understanding the material and I stopped enjoying it. It was more challening than the things I had been doing in the past, but that didn't make it more fun.

[MrEco]

Video games are fun, because they are challenging. The challenge in rockband/guitar hero comes from learning the songs, and being able to play them flawlessly. If you would like to increase this challenge, therefore have more fun, wouldn't it be logical to pick up a real instrument, and spend time learning the songs that way?

I don't want to pull myself into this argument but I really have to say, there are way more factors to making video games fun then just their difficulty. By that logic Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden are the best games ever made, just off the top of my memory, while at the same time Resident Evil 4 and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are very bland, ordinary games.

[RemyC]

With Rock Band on the easiest level you have very few notes, but the sound you hear is still the solo from Foreplay/Long Time. This ends up being more satisfying for many people. It takes a lot of dedication to get real guitar skills up to the point that you can play some of the songs you know, while with Rock Band you can stay on easy your whole life and still play everything.

If you're having fun with it...I cant stop you, but I believe that people are only cheating themselves through this.

To use a less facetious argument than the FPS/gun one, I really enjoyed math through calculus and differential equations. However, when I took multi-variable calculus it stopped being fun. I was no longer intuitively understanding the material and I stopped enjoying it. It was more challening than the things I had been doing in the past, but that didn't make it more fun.

I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say too much about this. So I'm going to make some assumptions. Perhaps you didn't appreciate the challenge, and only liked math when you were breezing through it. When you were overwhelmed by the challenge, you just stopped enjoying it, because it wasn't easy anymore. I'm sure alot of other people would have loved the complexity and probably devoted whole nights to comprehending the problems...to them breaking it all down was worth the time devoted to it.

there are way more factors to making video games fun then just their difficulty

Note that I said, "challenge", but difficulty is important. I don't find it fun to breeze through a game with no problems arising whatsoever. If a game is a walk in the park to get through, why not just go for a walk in the park?
A game like Sonic The Hedgehog is very easy to me. However, it has a scoring system. So, I challenge myself, by trying to beat my previous record. (Challenge is more than difficulty)

[...]By that logic Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden are the best games ever made[...] while at the same time Resident Evil 4 and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are very bland, ordinary games.

I am going to assume that you were trying to say that Resident Evil 4, and Twilight Princess were good, regardless of their difficulty. You don't make them seem too enjoyable when you refer to them as, bland and ordinary games.

[MrPopo]

If you're having fun with it...I cant stop you, but I believe that people are only cheating themselves through this.

Not everyone has the dexterity for real play, or the ability to think in the proper way. And now it's starting to sound like you're dictating what things one should sound fun, which I'm sure is not what you're intending. I encounter a similar sentiment, though, when I look at the Halo fans. I see people playing FPS's with dual analog while I sit with my mouse and keyboard and keep thinking how they are cheating themselves out of a great play experience. And the PC has some of the most intricate FPS's, like Deus Ex and System Shock 2, so sticking with games like Halo and Killzone seems a shame to me. But while I can encourage them to try what I consider to be the superior experience it doesn't mean what they do is any less fun. It's just less fun for me.

I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say too much about this. So I'm going to make some assumptions. Perhaps you didn't appreciate the challenge, and only liked math when you were breezing through it. When you were overwhelmed by the challenge, you just stopped enjoying it, because it wasn't easy anymore. I'm sure alot of other people would have loved the complexity and probably devoted whole nights to comprehending the problems...to them breaking it all down was worth the time devoted to it.

So this might have been my fault and doing a less-than-stellar job of explaining what was happening to me. Things like diff eq I understood, but it didn't make the problems any less challenging. I certainly did not breeze through the class. However, there was an underlying structure that I could ascertain and make work for me. When I was in multi-variable I found that sometimes I just couldn't make out that underlying structure, so things stopped being "hard but doable".

[...]By that logic Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden are the best games ever made[...] while at the same time Resident Evil 4 and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are very bland, ordinary games.

I am going to assume that you were trying to say that Resident Evil 4, and Twilight Princess were good, regardless of their difficulty. You don't make them seem too enjoyable when you refer to them as, bland and ordinary games.

He's saying that you seem to be putting forth the notion that challenge = fun, thus greater challenge = greater fun. DMC and NG are both very difficult games. Resident Evil 4 and Twilight Princess are moderately challenging games, but don't come close to the frustration level of DMC/NG. Thus, by the ideas you seem to be putting forth, DMC and NG are some of the best games ever made, and RE4 and TP are mediocre. In reality, though, RE4 and TP are both considered by the majority to be very fun games. In fact, many people enjoy RE4 and TP over DMC and NG, which seems to run counter to your theory.

[The Apprentice]

I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say too much about this. So I'm going to make some assumptions. Perhaps you didn't appreciate the challenge, and only liked math when you were breezing through it. When you were overwhelmed by the challenge, you just stopped enjoying it, because it wasn't easy anymore. I'm sure alot of other people would have loved the complexity and probably devoted whole nights to comprehending the problems...to them breaking it all down was worth the time devoted to it.

Challenge affects fun, but does not control it. If challenge and fun were drawn on a line graph, challenge would be a slope, and fun would be a parabola. I define challenge as everything thrown at the player that's fair. Now if I were to compare Mega Man to Mega Man V, I would be on different points on the graph. Both games are technically fair, but the fifth game simply throws so much at you that challenge exceeds fun. A musical game requires motor skills that can be developed in a few days or weeks if you're a slow learner, but musical instruments take much longer and more effort for less music.

[RemyC]

Not everyone has the dexterity for real play, or the ability to think in the proper way

Dexterity will come in time. It certainly will be a challenge, but the pay off will be great. If you don't believe that you have the skill to compose an original piece, then play you're favourite bands material. You don't need to aim to be the greatest singer/songwriter.

He's saying that you seem to be putting forth the notion that challenge = fun, thus greater challenge = greater fun.

I am. Within reason it is totally true. The Ghosts N Goblins series takes it to the extreme, which keeps it from being a fantastic game...But it's still fun if you can appreciate that sort of thing (Which I do). The majority of the enemies have randomized attack patterns, and out maneuver your character, that only has a limited arsenal of attacks, and unforgiving controls. So, even if you were to devote your life to this game, you will always be hoping that luck is on your side...however, every play-through will be fresh, and you'll never experience the same game twice.
A game like, Hard Corps which alot of people cry about being too difficult, becomes pretty easy after you've spent some time with it. Most of the enemies have static motions, and only a handful of them have a random attack or two, which you can normally read a mile away.
Challenge is relative.
Ninja Gaiden on normal mode, is only difficult until you learn how to play the game correctly. People are too happy living in their shells where they can clear through a game on their first play through with minimal problems. They don't like to feel inadequate, or take time to learn something. I spent a week with Ninja Gaiden getting handled every step of the way, until I finally learned the appropriate way to play. Then I breezed through the game (Except for a couple bosses that always keep you on your toes).

Whats left in a game once the challenge is gone? A high score run? What if the game doesn't have a scoring system?

A musical game requires motor skills that can be developed in a few days or weeks if you're a slow learner, but musical instruments take much longer and more effort for less music.

Again. People are cheating themselves. Musicianship is a very beautiful skill that takes time develop. You need to get out of the mindset of, "I've spent a week with this and suck. I give up". Take time to understand the theory, and it will come to you.
When I first started drumming, I would play daily until my fingers bled. It got to a point where I could only play four days a week because, my sores needed time to heal. Since then my skin has hardened, and I've developed a better technique, so that doesn't happen anymore...but it took time.

So yah. Don't cheat yourself. Put down the guitar hero/rockband, and pick up a real instrument

[RyaNtheSlayA]

When I first started drumming, I would play daily until my fingers bled. It got to a point where I could only play four days a week because, my sores needed time to heal. Since then my skin has hardened, and I've developed a better technique, so that doesn't happen anymore...but it took time.

So yah. Don't cheat yourself. Put down the guitar hero/rockband, and pick up a real instrument

When I started playing bass I used to play until my fingers bled as well. Just thinking of the sores is painful haha.

[MrEco]

[...]By that logic Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden are the best games ever made[...] while at the same time Resident Evil 4 and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are very bland, ordinary games.

I am going to assume that you were trying to say that Resident Evil 4, and Twilight Princess were good, regardless of their difficulty. You don't make them seem too enjoyable when you refer to them as, bland and ordinary games.

He's saying that you seem to be putting forth the notion that challenge = fun, thus greater challenge = greater fun. DMC and NG are both very difficult games. Resident Evil 4 and Twilight Princess are moderately challenging games, but don't come close to the frustration level of DMC/NG. Thus, by the ideas you seem to be putting forth, DMC and NG are some of the best games ever made, and RE4 and TP are mediocre. In reality, though, RE4 and TP are both considered by the majority to be very fun games. In fact, many people enjoy RE4 and TP over DMC and NG, which seems to run counter to your theory.

Exactly.

[dlmvii]

[quote="RemyC]When I first started drumming, I would play daily until my fingers bled. It got to a point where I could only play four days a week because, my sores needed time to heal. Since then my skin has hardened, and I've developed a better technique, so that doesn't happen anymore...but it took time.

So yah. Don't cheat yourself. Put down the guitar hero/rockband, and pick up a real instrument[/quote]

This. You are telling people to practice an instrument so much their fingers bleed instead of just playing a video game. People that play rythm games have no aspiration to become great musicians, they just want to play a game and have fun with it. I fail to see how this argument is any different than saying don't play any game, and instead spend your time doing what the game emulates.

Playing Guitar Hero is just wasting time playing a game. Playing an instrument is a real skill. Nobody is playing Guitar Hero to the exclusion of a real guitar. I just sense a Doctor Fugue vibe here, the idea that if you do something even a little bit, you have to be the very best at it.

[alienjesus]

im sorry, but im totally against the principle that more challenge is more fun. I think that really depends on the genre for one. I for one, enjoy platformers, but i cant be having with some of the harder ones, as i really dont seem good enough for them. Shmups however, i'm up for the extra effort. So challenge is fun to me in one genre and not the other.

What about games that aren't any challenge? Animal Crossing comes to mind. There nothing in animal crossing that requires a large amount of skill or ability to accomplish. In fact, on one of my animal crossing games i've not paid off my loan, and i dont care. Im not too fussed by catching the rarest of rare fish, i'm happy coasting along and seeing what comes my way.

The fact that i don't like playing the majority of my games on hard mode, even after beating normal dozens of times, suggest to me that the extra challenge isn't always enjoyable. The fun to me, comes from becoming absorbed in the game world, and the experience of the story and atmosphere, as well as from the challenge