How do you get the BEST possible video out of a Saturn?

[sv650touring]

I just made a big TV upgrade, and I wanted to know how to get the best possible picture quality from the old Saturn for an American NTSC TV. Obviously, Europeans have the rather nice option of SCART, which must be convenient. But, off-the-shelf options for Americans seem to top out at S-video. And the cables out there are pretty scrawny looking. I had a couple of ideas, but I wanted to know if anyone here can tell me if I am just wasting my time or what.

1.) Saturn --> Saturn SCART cable --> One of those SCART (RGB) to Component (YUV) converter deals --> Component Cable -->TV

How much signal degradation would you expect with this conversion?

2.) Cannibalize a saturn AV plug and attach it to the end of a high-quality S-Video cable with the wires soldered to the correct pins (which may require adding pins if it was a composite Saturn cable). Make a Frankencable with that plus a pair of decent stereo RCA cables.

3.) Go all out and just install standard S-video plug and Stereo RCA jacks on the back of the saturn by soldering to the PCB

Here's the link to the pinout, BTW

http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/saturnav.htm

Gotta run now, but I'd love to discuss this with someone more experienced.

PS

Does playing a PAL game on an NTSC saturn work, Llke most DC games, or does it screw up the picture like a PSX?

[elph]

I've been asking this same question about all of my consoles lately.

Assuming you want to hook your Saturn up to an HDTV, it seems like the best method would be to get one of these bad boys: http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGBv4/.

The signal degradation would be minimal because all that the device will do is change the way the sync is handled. Then you get nice, clean RGB output to your HDTV. It even looks like you may be able to fit it in the Saturn and solder directly to the Saturn.

Also, to quote this review http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/JROK- ... 06-01.html: "Playing Neo Geo games on a huge HDTV almost made me cry!"

Note that these kits cost $85.

[racketboy]

On a related note, we started a list a while back of all the best connections for various consoles:
http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... eo+quality

[metaleggman]

I've always heard that the Neogeo, when used with one of those, let out a subpar chroma signal.

[sv650touring]

Racketboy,

Thanks for pointing me at that previous thread. At first I was afraid i had raised topic that had been settled. I would like to have a discussion about the "hows" of getting this done. The Saturn deserves to look good on big modern TVs!

elph,

That thing looks pretty badass! $85 is pricey, but if it delivers Component (and lots of other) video in an easy to install form, then I may have to throw down.

On the Saturn pinout, there are pins for RGB, and also for Chrominance and Luminance. Does this mean that the Red Green and Blue pins are "unprocessed" by the saturn's encoder - but the S-video is processed? Is it possible the device would produce higher quality S-video than what the Saturn puts out at the AV port? Is it more likely that the JROK would produce better YUV Component than anything the Saturn could do, short of straight RGB?

I'm actualy not running on an HDTV, but I do have Component inputs on my 36" Toshiba 36AF43 tube. I think I am going to try my composite and S-Video Saturn cables that I already have for a comparison. Then, if it looks like the s-video has enough room for improvement, I may cobble together a homemade Saturn S-video cable, without modifying the saturn. Baby steps... If that goes well I MAY buy a used Saturn to experiment on.

I would love to hear anyone's experiences with similar projects.

thanks guys

[elph]

Yeah, $85 is a bit pricey for me too... but I figured you asked about the best, so let's discuss the best.

Any signal that you get out of the Saturn will be processed from digital to analog somehow... it's just that the best you can get out of that system is going to be RGB. So, unless you want to mod your TV to take the RGB signal straight (even possible?), your best bet is to convert the RGB to component. You could also opt to replace the analog converter like lordofduct suggested in that other thread as well, but that is a much more complicated mod, and I don't have the slightest idea about how it would work. As for the JROK encoder being any better than the Saturn's converter, the answer is I don't know. It depends on the quality of the converter in the Saturn, and how exactly it creates the S-video signal. Basically, we could theorize and speculate, but the only way to know for sure would be to try it.

I don't know if the S-video experiment will yield you much. It may help a little bit, but I would imagine you'll see a much bigger difference jumping from S-video to RGB/component than you will from S-video to a better S-video cable.

[lordofduct]

Without dirty dirty modifications (like I've said in other threads), S-vid is the best you are going to get here in the USA... unless you are lucky enough to have a TV that accepts RGB. Not common though.

As for the converter boxes that turn RGB into YPbPr. They are pricey and there is considerable picture loss. Upside, it is still better then S-vid depending the box you buy. It really depends on the construction of the device and the manner in which they get the signaling for each line, so if you are looking for good quality... you better do your research and buy accordingly.

If you want to get into the much of things there are TONS of options. But at this level you are looking at spending mucho dollars and working your butt off to do it. I myself am walking into this line right now for more of my systems... I've done it on a saturn, but since destroyed that very saturn doing other mods to it. Damn past coke addictions and there insufferable twitches and shakes.

2 n 1/2 years clean now! YEY!

[sv650touring]

You know, I'll tell you. I've been running the XBox off of a crappy Mad Catz universal AV cable via S-Video, and I'm not complaining. I been on a crappy old TV with composite only for so long, I don't think I am a good judge of picture quality anyways. My perspective is off.

As I understand it my realistic custom options are:

SCART-> YUV converter - This would be easy, but fairly expensive as it would require Saturn SCART cable and a converter, which would be around $80 all up. Also, the signal would deteriorate a bit in the process

internal RGB -> YUV encoder - most expensive, most difficult option, most risk of junking Saturn, but likely to have the best picture, despite additional conversion step.

install stereo + S-Video ports on Saturn, connecting to built-in encoder - potential for best S-video output using good cables, not too difficult or expensive, but some risk of trashing the Saturn

Custom "higher quality" Saturn S-Video cable - no risk to Saturn, reasonably cheap and easy, but likely to have least improved picture or no improvement.

Please let me know if I'm I leaving anything out.

Why couldn't TVs just all come with SCART? Incompatible video standards are killing me inside.

[lordofduct]

I stated this in another thread just today...

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Ok, and from a UK perspective... I'm looking at as much console to SCART as possible right?

Yes.

As long as you have the right SCART. One big reason we never got this great little device is that it can carry any signal (other then component), this sounds great until you notice it means it can carry any signal, but doesn't have to carry all. So make sure you pick up the RGB SCART cables and also make sure you have an RGB SCART TV.

Also don't buy SCART cables from certain parts of Asia. They have a cable that looks like SCART, but actually uses a different pin out and isn't SCART... it can fry your SCART port on your TV if you use it.

As for your options and you noticed video quality I'd say just go with S-video. Out of most cables it is very nice.

Putting your own dedicated S-vid port and stereo cables in it is an option as well, but you know what... the quality really isn't going to be all that increased over purchased cables merely because you are soldering it all in by hand. Not to say you can't handle an iron, it's just you have to be REALLY good to make quality solder's with quality products/wires that really it is something only an expert is going to pull off.

The human error placed into a YUV mod for component is high as well... but the degragation keeps it well above S-Vid so the pay off is good. The human error in a YUV mod for S-vid is to high to compare to just using the YUV s-vid out already inherent in the system. So just utilize it.


Look into your cost-quality ratio and decide.

For instance if you own multiple consoles ALL capable of putting out RGB then buying a RGB->Component converter and a high quulity RGB switch box and then taking the RGB signals of all the systems, putting it through the switch box out to a high quality RGB->Component converter is a very good cost-quality ratio. You are receiving several high quality video sources now.

But for one console, maybe two. Why do it? For a "little" extra oomph? Seriousily the picture quality difference isn't high enough. It's not like the Saturn or especially older consoles look 100 times more amazing. It isn't like say DVD where the source is a capability of 720p. Your source puts out very low res (some Saturn games can get high... but not all, and nothing at 720p). Why bother?

S-vid still looks damn good. It cleans out the blurs and straitens up the picture very well at a VERY good price. Nice happy medium in my opinion. It is what I utilize most the time. The only reason I modify some consoles to do better really actually isn't for the picture quality. It's for the fun of it, it's a hobby of mine. Shit sometimes I do the mods and don't even utilize them. I did em' just to gain the knowledge.

[sv650touring]

lorofduct,

I appreciate all the info. I'm kinda like you in the "just for the fun of it" department. Although "just to satisfy my compulsion" may be a more honest description of my motives. I really don't play video games that much, never have. Hasn't stoppped me from owning (currently) 12 consoles, counting a bad saturn and psx. I like them but I don't like playing them. My standard MO is to pop in a game, play with it for 5 minutes, then spend the next few hours reading reviews and FAQs. IMO, Saturn and Dreamcast have the best games, as the hold my attention better than other systems. I also love fiddling with settings and making my emulators work perfect, but the only emulated game I ever put any time into was Blazing Lazers/Gunhed - which I had on a real TG16 anyways!

But when I mess around with my stuff, I want to go all out. Well, I guess when it comes to A/V equipment, the sky is the limit, so by "all out" I mean within my limited skills and budget.

I'm guessing I won't bother with the YUV encoder, unless I really get fixated on it. So that brings up the options withing S-Video. It is likely I will install proper S-Video and stereo port on a saturn.

I have questions S-video and comb filters. I bet you can guess where I'm headed with this. I read that the comb filter is what separates the chrominance from the luminance in the signal. I also read that if the comb filter in your television is substantially better than the one in your source device, that you may actually get a superior picture using composite video. Now, my TV (I believe) has a really good comb filter, but I also believe that I don't know very much about such matters. I would expect there is something I am not considering here. Does a Saturn even use a comb filer? What are the odds that composite will yield a higher quality picture than S-Video? I doubt it would, and I really should just test it, as I have the means, but the subject itself is very interesting to me.

Care to straighten me out on this?