The Wrestling Thread

[Raging Justice]

I used to like the Punk/Drew thing because of the sic burns Drew was making on Punk, but now it's kind of sad. Literally everything Drew does from media appearances, to social media posts, to even autographs for fans revolves around CM Punk. It makes him look like some sad obsessive fan like the guy in that Eminem song Stan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOMhN-hfMtY

It wouldn't at all surprise me if Punk was in charge of the creative for this, it so perfectly suits his ego

[Raging Justice]

I want to touch again on a topic we've talked about before. I totally enjoy watching two wrestlers get in the ring and put on an amazing athletic performance or a "5 star" match as some would say. Here's the thing though, a person can send me a youtube video of a five star match. I'll watch it, I'll enjoy it...and then I'll probably forget about it. It doesn't make me want to check out the wrestling promotion. It doesn't make me a fan.

I think this is the important distinction that promotions need to understand. I didn't become a fan of Lucha Underground because of 5 star matches. I became a fan because of its unique presentation, outside the box thinking, interesting characters, and story lines. After I was already invested for those reasons, I tuned in every week and enjoyed the "5 star matches" (even though Meltzer refuses to rate any of them). Watching athletes do cool shit is fun, but it's no different than watching someone do a stunt on a TikTok video or a magic trick. It'll hold your attention, entertain you for a few minutes, and maybe you'll share the video with some friends and family...then you move on with your life.

It's STORIES and CHARACTERS that make you invested and want to watch a promotion on a regular basis. If I didn't like any of the characters or stories that AEW ever told, it wouldn't matter if they were having ten star matches. I wouldn't tune in every week. I mentioned that I'm a casual fan of Stardom. For the most part, I only follow whatever the Cosmic Angels are doing. 70% of the Stardom matches that I watch are the ones that involve one of their members. I don't care about anyone else on the roster and that is why I only consider myself a casual fan. If I'm being honest, I skip a lot of fantastic matches when I'm watching WWE and AEW shows simply because I don't give a fuck about the wrestlers involved. Dante Martin could have the match of his career, and I'd probably go make a sandwich and check my email while the match was happening on TV because I don't give a fuck about Dante Martin.

I am a massive fan of the John Wick movies. It isn't just because they are full of badass action scenes. I thoroughly enjoy watching them, but I wouldn't care how cool those action scenes were if I didn't think John Wick was cool as fuck and if I wasn't thoroughly invested in the awesome, fictional assassin led world that those movies have created. I will lose interest in any action flick no matter how cool the fights and stunts are if the movie doesn't hook me in with its characters and stories first.

Wrestling needs to ALWAYS prioritize good stories and good characters. I'm going to say this, because it's true. Sports entertainment is more important than 5 star matches. Vince McMahon was right, and WWE hasn't strayed that far from his vision and it's been serving them well. Hulk Hogan is viewed as the biggest name in pro wrestling, and it's because he was a memorable character from the 80s that no one will ever forget. Not to get too political, but he did a speech at a political convention recently that was mostly in character. When he tore his shirt off in classic Hulkster fashion, everybody lost their shit. It's Hulk Hogan. He's one of the biggest pop culture icons of all time and no one gives a fuck about whether or not he ever had a 5 star match. Nobody even remembers if Steve Austin ever had a 5 star match because nobody gives a fuck if he did. It is what it is. Toni Storm can have an 8 star match, and I'll still hate her because her character is fucking stupid and it isn't drawing ratings for AEW. Anything "Timeless" Toni Storm is a bathroom break for me.

I have watched a lot of action shows and movies. Fight scenes in Cobra Kai are kind of mediocre compared to the best stuff in the action genre, but it's still one of my favorite shows on TV because I fucking love the characters and the story. When the show has a fight, I am thoroughly invested in watching it and seeing the outcome because I FUCKING CARE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE. Wrestling matches need to support your story and your characters, not the other way around. If that's not how you're running your promotion (and Tony Kahn is often guilty of this), then you're doing it wrong.

I just needed to say that.

[Reprise]

So I wonder what your thoughts are on the following reprise. Stardom has been really crazy of late. I'm a very casual fan, but I've been hearing all kinds of wild stuff going on there since the new guy took over booking. They are telling one particularly interesting story line right now that I find kind of fascinating and it's the sort of thing that could be interesting in AEW or WWE.

Tam Nakano is viewed by some as the face of Stardom. Mayu Iwatani is referred to as the icon and some view her as the protagonist of Stardom. However, Tam sells tons of merchandize and seems to be the most popular person in the company (kind of like Naito in NJPW right now). Tam's whole career also seems to revolve around trying to surpass Mayu Iwatani. So Tam's a big deal obviously. Anyway, I think I mentioned before that Tam and the more prominent members of her faction (Saori Anou and Natsupoi) got beat down by the new world champion and her new heel group H.A.T.E. recently. This was right after those three girls won the trios titles, spoiling their moment of victory and not giving them a chance to celebrate. They targeted Tam in particular by brutally attacking her leg with a chair than forcibly cutting off her hair. The attack included someone who was once a prized student of Tam (Saya Kamitani), now gleefully putting her boot on Tam's prone body after going heel and joining H.A.T.E.

This has led to an absolutely shocking development. Stardom has been having their yearly 5Star Grand Prix tournament to determine who gets a shot to face the world champion. This is the tournament Anna Jay has been competing in. Tam Nakano, possibly the biggest star in that company, has lost every single tournament match so far, including a loss to Mayu Iwatani - the woman she seems cursed to never get a victory over. This is the worst tournament performance of Tam's career and she now has no chance of winning it because she has lost too many matches to get the amount of points she would need to win it. Everyone I've seen who covers Stardom has been genuinely surprised by this. Now in Tam's defense, her injured leg seems to have been a focus of every opponent she's faced. Even more strange, the champ who injured Tam's leg in the first place has offered her a title shot. Now this woman HATES Tam, so people are assuming this is simply a chance for her to humiliate Tam even further...or just end her career.

I don't think WWE would have the balls to job out a John Cena or Cody Rhodes or even someone like Bianca Belair like this for a story line and I find it genuinely fascinating. It goes against traditional pro wrestling booking to have a top star take so many loses, consecutively. During a big, important yearly event no less. Check out this ominous poster for the upcoming title match:

I think this is fascinating and actually it kind of coincides with some thoughts I have had recently about how much fans and promotions perhaps seem to worry too much about win records and the "right person" going over.

I don't watch or really follow a lot of Stardom, but sounds intriguing. I can't think of anything similar in WWE or AEW. Perhaps that Summerslam (2014, I think) where John Cena got absolutely destroyed by Brock Lesnar, but that was just one moment and not a series of consecutive losses. I think that led to Cena taking the US championship and holding onto it for a while when he did his open challenge shtick. Maybe that was later.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if Punk was in charge of the creative for this, it so perfectly suits his ego

Interesting, I listened to a podcast and they theorised the opposite; saying the feud has become so silly and Punk has looked like such an idiot multiple times, obsessing over a silly bracelet etc, that they think some people in WWE are 'testing' Punk.

I agree that Drew just looks like a weird stalker at this point.

It's STORIES and CHARACTERS that make you invested and want to watch a promotion on a regular basis.

This is true. That said, personally, I don't feel the stories necessarily need to be done in the way WWE does it, but for me they do need to give me an emotional hook and get me invested in a series of characters. That's what AEW often struggles with. I don't think it's as bad as a lot of other people think it is, but it is my primary issue with AEW. I will say it is a problem I had even when the company was in its hot period though, but probably just not to the extent it has been the last year or so.

That said, I am quite looking forward to All In to be honest. Also I will catch up on Dynamite, since it's the first UK one and the crowd looked great.

[Reprise]

AEW is making some interesting changes to how they are booking their PPVs next year.

All In is moving to Texas, to a stadium there. It'll be in July, rather than August, which is a decent idea, since it will give them more breathing space to build towards All Out.

Meanwhile, it's just been revealed that Forbidden Door will be in the UK (presumably Wembley Edit: Actually probably O2 Arena). It's smart, as the UK has proven to be a decent market for them, but continuously running All In runs the risk of fatigue and diminishing returns.

There's rumours of them doing a show over in Australia too.

Some good business decisions are being made here.

Now if the booking and creative can be improved and they continue to hire people who can help out behind the scenes with creative and the business side of things, maybe they can start to build more momentum into next year.

[Raging Justice]

It's not the ROH title, but I still kind of feel like Nostradamus. Now we just need May to beat Storm

https://x.com/PuroresuFlow/status/1827429974212800523

[Raging Justice]

Is this one pay per view or three pay per views?



When someone told me there were 11 matches I laughed...but it's actually true!

[Reprise]

I mean, two (edit: Nope, it's three) are on the pre-show... And it's their biggest show of the year. 9 8 matches isn't outlandish and wasn't considered outlandish until Triple H decided all their PPVs need to have half a dozen matches max and started making PPVs two nights (Summerslam will allegedly be joining Mania in being a two night thing from next year).

I'd take their approach over WWE's 4-5 match PPVs, but wish we could get AEW to cut the fat sometimes. Not every PPV needs nearly half a dozen matches including the pre-show. Double or Nothing definitely would have benefited from a couple matches being cut and saved for Dynamite.

Hey, I just realised there's no Stadium Stampede match this year. Hallel-fucking-ujah.

[Raging Justice]

That has to be in the conversation for greatest AEW pay per view of all time.

[Raging Justice]

Perry squashed Darby at the PPV, I was a little surprised but not at all bothered by it. I actually get tired of wrestling matches always being competitive. Sometimes I just want to see someone decisively go over someone, and Perry is much more interesting than Darby right now. I held my tongue a little bit when people used to shit on Jungle Boy all the time. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and join the group think, but I always thought Jungle Boy was a work in progress and that a lot of his criticism was maybe a bit unfair for someone who is clearly still learning the business. Right now I think Perry is the second best pillar (after MJF). His issues with CM Punk and his time in Japan have done wonders for him. He is now living up to the potential that AEW saw in him, and saying that I still think there's room for him to improve even further.

Bryan got his Wrestlemania moment in AEW. That was cool.

Pac gets another nice pay per view win that feels deserved, but I still kind of feel that maybe he should be doing bigger things in AEW than a trios title. Him being in the BCC is cool though, he's a good fit for it, and we don't know the future of Pentagon and Fenyx in AEW. I am glad they are using some of these trios and tag titles to help get people over though. For example, Dustin Rhodes holding a title in AEW has been long overdue and now he has two of them.

I am disappointed that Maria May and Mina Shirakawa didn't beat the fuck out of Storm to write her off TV. On the other hand, I think I wouldn't mind if they kept May and Shirakawa apart from each other. Honestly, every single thing AEW has done involving these three women has been absolute trash. They should keep May away from both of them but I'm sure that's not gonna happen because AEW seems convinced that this entire Timeless Toni Storm story line has been gold. Fucking delusional. Everyone I watch wrestling with agrees that it's absolute shit. It's only weirdos on the internet who seem to think otherwise. Thank God Mercedes, Kamile, and DMD gave the Women's Division something on this show that wasn't embarrassing for all involved. Mercedes IS the women's division now. Everything worth a damn in that division now revolves around her. The TBS title is the women's title now. Mariah's title is the women's division secondary, mid-card title. Storm has amazingly managed to downgrade it with her shitty run with it. Shida didn't even bother going after it, she immediately wanted matches with Mercedes and DMD. Nobody in that division that's worth a damn gives a fuck about that title.

Jamie Hayter is back...interesting. I'm starting to like Harley Cameron.

Ricochet's debut was cool, but I don't see a very exciting career from him in AEW. He's just another spot monkey like Dante Martin. He has a big supporter in Ospreay though, which could work in his favor.

Christian once again steps into the main event picture, I don't think he'll stay there long but he deserves to step into it every now and then. I can't believe Hangman got taken out by Jeff Jarret's wife, but I'll allow it given that she used a guitar.

I'm glad the Bucks are still holding their tag titles. The Acclaimed and FTR are so stale and boring. The Young Bucks are the greatest tag team in AEW and that hasn't changed since the day the company began. The only duo that has even come close to being as awesome as them is Fenyx and Pentagon.

MJF always delivers in big matches. I don't feel like there was a real point to his brief run with that title though, other than maybe letting Ospreay get a win over a former world champion.

I knew Taz had to get involved in this Jericho feud at some point. Big Bill is developing a strong fanbase.

Nigel McGuiness and Stokely Hathaway wrestled. Wow. Kudos to both of them. Solid performances. Stokely didn't have to do much but was entertaining. Nigel wrestled a whole match like a guy who hasn't been retired for years.

Great show overall, even the preshow was worth watching. To me the preshow = the pay per view. I honestly don't see a separation. If I bought a DVD of an AEW pay per view I would expect the preshow to be on it as well or else I would consider it incomplete. I guess All In is AEW's Wrestlemania now. Interesting.

It's honestly amazing how different an AEW pay per view is from WWE. It's just match, match, match, match, etc. There's barely any time to get a snack or take a piss. WWE loads up their pay per views with endless, pointless video packages and commercials.

[Raging Justice]

Bryan's booking is amazing. Both WWE and AEW have managed to make him into a guy who can't ever win the big one no matter how popular he is or how respected he is by everyone in the business...only to finally have him get the big win on the biggest show after making fans wait seemingly forever.

It's just an interesting coincidence. This was just like Wrestlemania XXX, a world title win for him that felt like one people waited on forever, to the point of being skeptical that it would ever happen.

Kudos to this crowd for reminding me of how stupidly over Bryan was in 2014. It felt like a throwback to that period in time.