The Wrestling Thread

[Reprise]

I find WWE so hard to watch these days. I honestly don't know how it got so "hot". Everything is just so "mid", especially the in-ring product. The actual matches. They have somehow managed to convince their fans that a bunch of mediocre matches that are VERY heavy on drama and simplistic basic soap opera stories, mixed with over the top production and ridiculous entrances, is good wrestling. WWE has a funny almost contradictory set of additional issues for me too. It is both too predictable and also unpredictable in the most cynical way possible, done to swerve for the sake of swerving and extending storylines beyond their natural conclusion for the sake of keeping them going. It's like everyone sees that Vince is gone and 'Papa H' (cringe) is in charge, so "the show is good. It must be good. Everyone says it is good". It's the same damn WWE. It's just some of utter garbage Vince used to do is gone, but despite the icing Triple H has laid over the product the last year and a bit, it's still the same damn cake underneath.

Is AEW better? No. AEW really struggles to tell compelling stories and get you emotionally invested in characters. There is a lack of cohesion and their weekly television shows can often have weird pacing. Sometimes they succeed, like Hangman's initial rise and his recent descent into being a heel character, as well as Swerve's ascent up the card to ultimately winning the belt. I also think they handled Sting's retirement amazingly. I also think the way they humanised and added depth to MJF's character last year and slowly turned him face was brilliant. But a lot of the time, even when they find something good, I always ask myself "hey, I wonder how and when they will drop the ball this time?" because they nearly always do.

But as someone who appreciates actual in-ring quality and matches more, as well as the more simple stories that are told from when the bell rings until the 3 count or tap out occurs, I do generally enjoy AEW more.

For example, I recently watched ROH Final Battle 2023 and Summerslam 2024. I much preferred watching Athena vs Billie Starkz' main event match on ROH, which was a classic story involving student vs mentor, despite having watched very little ROH tv leading up to it and not knowing much of the story. It was an absolute banger of a match. Summerslam did nothing for me, despite having tons of angles and story progression, because the matches were mediocre as fuck.

[Markies]

They also have the most toxic and blind supporting fans of a corporation I have ever seen. A wrestler signs with WWE and the fans think they are greatest wrestler alive. A wrestler leaves WWE and they turn on them in an instant.

I love how everybody is excited and thrilled about the crossover between NXT and TNA. Like, it is something they have never seen before and how it is helping both companies. When, in all actuality, it is just an easy way for WWE to poach talent away from TNA.

I am not sure if its a generational thing, but I find the current WWE offering incredibly bad I am surprised people are still watching in the millions. I keep hearing the old wrestlers saying how much the current generation is better than them (maybe in ring action?) , I do not see it. I'll take Macho Man vs Rick Flair or Steve Austin vs Bret Hart any day over Roman Reigns and who ever is Solo Sikoa.

And its not just kids, there is a lot of adults in the audience! Is AEW any better?

==============

On a different topic, has AEW reached its climax in popularity? Seemed it was rocketing up to give WWE a real competition but things have calmed down. Just from YouTube subscribers , AEW has 4 Million vs WWE's 103 Million . There is still a lot of room to grow and beating WWE in this comical offering has never been easier.

One of the many things people get confused about when it comes to AEW is comparing them to WWE. Everybody likes to create a "Wrestle War" and some of the talent and people behind the scenes like to do it as well.

The reason AEW exists is because WWE has a monopoly. If you wanted to be a professional wrestler or work in professional wrestling, you had to work for WWE to make a good living. You can go to Japan, but that means basically living in Japan. TNA barely has enough money to pay itself, so it was either WWE or nothing else.

AEW was created as a wrestling alternative. If you don't like the WWE product, watch AEW. If you don't want to work for WWE, then work for AEW. Now, with AEW existing, so many more people are allowed to make a living in the United States doing professional wrestling. Do you think people like Orange Cassidy or Nyla Rose or even MJF would be able to work for WWE a few years ago?

So, as long as AEW is able to pay their wrestlers, be an alternative, and offer people the chance for a living, then AEW is succeeding. WWE has been at the top of the game for decades. No brand that is just barely five years old is going to beat them. WCW barely did it and then they went out of business.

[Raging Justice]

AEW could easily compete with WWE if Tony Kahn pulled his head out of his ass, but AEW fans keep making excuses for him. I used to do it too.

[Reprise]

Whilst I agree, actually running a wrestling promotion must be pretty hard. Trying to gain any kind of momentum and maintain it, whilst trying to build stars and get wrestlers over, writing compelling storylines that get fans invested, whilst increasing your following and not to mention having to constantly pivot when dealing with wresters getting injured or leaving, or changing course because people unexpectedly get over organically or don't in the way you anticipate, is harder than it sounds.

All the armchair pundits, online fans, youtubers, podcasters, influencers and grifters may think they know how to run AEW better and they know how to run a promotion. They might have some good ideas, but they would also fuck up if they were giving the keys and told to "fix" the promotion. We know this, because we've seen the colossal fuck ups that all of them (Cornette, Russo, Bischoff and countless others) have been involved in. Hell even Heyman who inexplicably gets called a genius, despite 90% of ECW being fucking garbage with the most nonsensical booking and terrible stories seen in wrestling, although he's always been fairly quiet and respectful when asked about AEW.

I am a hypocrite though, because here's my issues with AEW that I think they need to resolve:

Create a monster heel. Someone who is feared by most of the roster and absolutely dominates. I have said it before, but I'd have Okada in this role and involve psychological aspects, with him manipulating the rest of the Elite.

Start developing a face who the fans can get behind. Someone who can be the 'Batman' to the monster heel 'Joker' character.

Carve out a very clear lower card, with jobbers, a clear mid card and then a main event group where EVERYONE is wanting and fighting for the world title. Stop this whole silly thing where as soon as someone loses the world title they just fall down the card and stop caring about it. Stop allowing lower level guys have long competitive matches with your main event guys, as everything then loses its value. Once in a while, one of these guys getting a shot of adrenaline and going out there and coming close to winning and refusing to stay down is good, but it needs to be rare.

The problem above is they gave all their mid card titles to big names (Adam Copeland, Christian, Ospreay/MJF, Mercedes etc). There isn't a clear pecking order or linearity in terms of belts and working your way up the card. And that moves me onto the next issue...

Too many belts! Stop putting ROH titles on AEW as well, because it gets really confusing.

Also, chill out with all the factions. At least until you can find how to book them better and more cohesively.

[Reprise]

Just discovered this. Joe Hendry once used a Dreamcast as a weapon

The GIF below is poor quality, but it should be easy enough to find a clip on Youtube or something.

[RCBH928]

One of the many things people get confused about when it comes to AEW is comparing them to WWE. Everybody likes to create a "Wrestle War" and some of the talent and people behind the scenes like to do it as well.

The reason AEW exists is because WWE has a monopoly.

you have to compare. There is limited viewership and they are fighting for it. In ideal world AEW will eat into WWE viewers to get a more balanced competition. People are probably going to pick an either or company to follow.

[RCBH928]

Whilst I agree, actually running a wrestling promotion must be pretty hard. Trying to gain any kind of momentum and maintain it, whilst trying to build stars and get wrestlers over, writing compelling storylines that get fans invested, whilst increasing your following and not to mention having to constantly pivot when dealing with wresters getting injured or leaving, or changing course because people unexpectedly get over organically or don't in the way you anticipate, is harder than it sounds.

All the armchair pundits, online fans, youtubers, podcasters, influencers and grifters may think they know how to run AEW better and they know how to run a promotion. They might have some good ideas, but they would also fuck up if they were giving the keys and told to "fix" the promotion. We know this, because we've seen the colossal fuck ups that all of them (Cornette, Russo, Bischoff and countless others) have been involved in. Hell even Heyman who inexplicably gets called a genius, despite 90% of ECW being fucking garbage with the most nonsensical booking and terrible stories seen in wrestling, although he's always been fairly quiet and respectful when asked about AEW.

I am a hypocrite though, because here's my issues with AEW that I think they need to resolve:

Create a monster heel. Someone who is feared by most of the roster and absolutely dominates. I have said it before, but I'd have Okada in this role and involve psychological aspects, with him manipulating the rest of the Elite.

Start developing a face who the fans can get behind. Someone who can be the 'Batman' to the monster heel 'Joker' character.

Carve out a very clear lower card, with jobbers, a clear mid card and then a main event group where EVERYONE is wanting and fighting for the world title. Stop this whole silly thing where as soon as someone loses the world title they just fall down the card and stop caring about it. Stop allowing lower level guys have long competitive matches with your main event guys, as everything then loses its value. Once in a while, one of these guys getting a shot of adrenaline and going out there and coming close to winning and refusing to stay down is good, but it needs to be rare.

The problem above is they gave all their mid card titles to big names (Adam Copeland, Christian, Ospreay/MJF, Mercedes etc). There isn't a clear pecking order or linearity in terms of belts and working your way up the card. And that moves me onto the next issue...

Too many belts! Stop putting ROH titles on AEW as well, because it gets really confusing.

Also, chill out with all the factions. At least until you can find how to book them better and more cohesively.

This is all old tactics, I think pro wrestling needs new renovation. Maybe because I am old and have seen it all, for the current generation its all new experience to them so it might be exciting albeit there are a lot of adults in those pro-wrestling crowd.

[Raging Justice]

Anyone else getting tired of chop fests and bleeding chests in wrestling? It's kind of getting old. Even the women are doing it now, particularly in the Stardom tournament currently taking place. I like when Gunther does it because they've established that as his thing. Everywhere else though it's becoming too common.

Anyway, I acknowledge that I have no experience running a wrestling promotion so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but here's a few things I wouldn't mind seeing in the near future:

Hangman screws Swerve out of the title and Bryan finally gets a run with it, right before he presumably retires or goes part time. This leads to Hangman and Swerve having a Hell of War style match like Swerve had in Lucha Underground. You don't have to call it that though. Hangman wins the match with help from The Elite, who have finally won Hangman over to their side...at least for the time being. This also leads to Hangman becoming the leader of the group and its new figure head, who now has his sites set on Bryan Danielson. So that all the big singles titles can come to The Elite. I would drop little teases that maybe there is friction between Hangman and Okada.

Mariah May beats Toni Storm in their title match with interference from Mina Shirakawa, they beat the holy hell out of Storm. Storm gets stretchered out and written off TV for the foreseeable future.

Mina Shirakawa wins the ROH women's title with help from Mariah May. Her and May are basically a power duo now.

Move Athena over to the AEW roster.

DMD wins the TBS title after Kamille turns on Mercedes. Kamille then brutally destroys BOTH ladies after the match, leaving them laid out and holding the title above her head.

Next episode of Dynamite, we see DMD in the ring. She starts cutting a promo about how she's going to elevate the TBS title like she did the women's title. Her promo gets interrupted by Willow who comes to the ring and cuts a brief promo, then Athena makes her AEW debut and cuts a brief promo, then ROH champion Mina Shirakawa comes out too (accompanied by women's champion Mariah) and makes it clear that she has eyes on the TBS title. Then Kamille comes out, and everyone in the ring looks visibly intimidated by her. She brags about Mercedes being too hurt to appear on the show and puts all of these women on notice.

[Reprise]

Solid ideas. I really want Athena to move up to the main AEW roster. Having watched some recent ROH PPVs, I want to see more of her, but I don't really have the desire to watch ROH full time. She has a fantastic look to her, she just looks like a star and has great charisma. And she's a great wrestler too.

I don't hate the idea of Bryan winning the belt. They are really over egging this idea that Bryan really wants to retire and doesn't want the belt, so I suspect he might win. Hangman costing Swerve the title is the best way to do it, whilst reigniting that feud.

If that did happen, I would like them to use that to springboard intto establishing a group of main eventers all vying for the title... Hangman, Swerve, Okada (a good way to increase tension between Hangman and Okada, if this hypothetical situation played out), Ospreay, MJF, Jay White and a returning Omega.

[Raging Justice]

That's a solid group of main eventers. Christian is a guy you could slot in there too if necessary, though he might be best served staying as a guy at the top of the midcard.

So I wonder what your thoughts are on the following reprise. Stardom has been really crazy of late. I'm a very casual fan, but I've been hearing all kinds of wild stuff going on there since the new guy took over booking. They are telling one particularly interesting story line right now that I find kind of fascinating and it's the sort of thing that could be interesting in AEW or WWE.

Tam Nakano is viewed by some as the face of Stardom. Mayu Iwatani is referred to as the icon and some view her as the protagonist of Stardom. However, Tam sells tons of merchandize and seems to be the most popular person in the company (kind of like Naito in NJPW right now). Tam's whole career also seems to revolve around trying to surpass Mayu Iwatani. So Tam's a big deal obviously. Anyway, I think I mentioned before that Tam and the more prominent members of her faction (Saori Anou and Natsupoi) got beat down by the new world champion and her new heel group H.A.T.E. recently. This was right after those three girls won the trios titles, spoiling their moment of victory and not giving them a chance to celebrate. They targeted Tam in particular by brutally attacking her leg with a chair than forcibly cutting off her hair. The attack included someone who was once a prized student of Tam (Saya Kamitani), now gleefully putting her boot on Tam's prone body after going heel and joining H.A.T.E.

This has led to an absolutely shocking development. Stardom has been having their yearly 5Star Grand Prix tournament to determine who gets a shot to face the world champion. This is the tournament Anna Jay has been competing in. Tam Nakano, possibly the biggest star in that company, has lost every single tournament match so far, including a loss to Mayu Iwatani - the woman she seems cursed to never get a victory over. This is the worst tournament performance of Tam's career and she now has no chance of winning it because she has lost too many matches to get the amount of points she would need to win it. Everyone I've seen who covers Stardom has been genuinely surprised by this. Now in Tam's defense, her injured leg seems to have been a focus of every opponent she's faced. Even more strange, the champ who injured Tam's leg in the first place has offered her a title shot. Now this woman HATES Tam, so people are assuming this is simply a chance for her to humiliate Tam even further...or just end her career.

I don't think WWE would have the balls to job out a John Cena or Cody Rhodes or even someone like Bianca Belair like this for a story line and I find it genuinely fascinating. It goes against traditional pro wrestling booking to have a top star take so many loses, consecutively. During a big, important yearly event no less. Check out this ominous poster for the upcoming title match: