The Wrestling Thread

[Raging Justice]

So after making the above post, I discover this article. Might be interesting to you reprise:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/101 ... competitor

[Reprise]

Thanks, I'll read the article now.

I'll also probably write a more indepth response later, I read the whole of your post, but I'd just add that I think nothing demonstrates better the gaslighting campaign and docile and subservient WWE fanbase than the huge 180 in term's of both fans and critics' reactions to the WWE video games now.

Those games used to get so much flack, with the negativity reaching its peak in 2019 with the release of 2K20.

Since then though, during this wave of WWE positivity that has transformed over the last couple of years, people will now not shut up about how "amazing" the video games are.

They aren't.

Fundamentally, in terms of the engine and the gameplay, they are the exact same games. They have tweaked the engine, fixed bugs, improved the graphics and improved what they have, but otherwise it's just the same game being released every single year with a fresh coat of paint and a new $70 pricetag.

Much like people want us to believe the WWE is as big, popular and great as it was in the 80s and 90s (if not better), they want us to alsobelieve the same is true about the video games. But they're no where near as fun, innovative, fluid or creative as games like WWF No Mercy on the N64 or Here Comes the Pain on the PS2.

[Raging Justice]

Imagine if AEW actually promoted this or actually gave people a reason to care:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/ ... am_nakano/

What's sad is that with Stardom going through some turbulence after losing a portion of its roster along with Rossy Ogawa, it would have been nice for AEW to try and give the company a bit of a boost and some added attention. Some people feel like AEW's relationship with Japanese companies is very one sided, like Tony only really cares about what HE gets out of the relationship. I'm not gonna weigh in on that, just acknowledging that there are people who feel that way. I've done enough rants about Tony anyway

On another note, here's another match I'm sure AEW won't mention or promote in any way:

[Reprise]

There was a report recently that said the match was supposed to be happening later on and the plan was to have a much longer build with more promotion, but it got rushed and pushed forward, because reasons...

I think the "reason" is because Willow is dropping the title to Mercedes next Sunday.

[Raging Justice]

There was a report recently that said the match was supposed to be happening later on and the plan was to have a much longer build with more promotion, but it got rushed and pushed forward, because reasons...

I think the "reason" is because Willow is dropping the title to Mercedes next Sunday.

That's a shame. I hope Mercedes doesn't disappoint once she gets that title and I hope AEW has something good lined up for her when she does.

Thanks, I'll read the article now.

I'll also probably write a more indepth response later, I read the whole of your post, but I'd just add that I think nothing demonstrates better the gaslighting campaign and docile and subservient WWE fanbase than the huge 180 in term's of both fans and critics' reactions to the WWE video games now.

Those games used to get so much flack, with the negativity reaching its peak in 2019 with the release of 2K20.

Since then though, during this wave of WWE positivity that has transformed over the last couple of years, people will now not shut up about how "amazing" the video games are.

They aren't.

Fundamentally, in terms of the engine and the gameplay, they are the exact same games. They have tweaked the engine, fixed bugs, improved the graphics and improved what they have, but otherwise it's just the same game being released every single year with a fresh coat of paint and a new $70 pricetag.

Much like people want us to believe the WWE is as big, popular and great as it was in the 80s and 90s (if not better), they want us to alsobelieve the same is true about the video games. But they're no where near as fun, innovative, fluid or creative as games like WWF No Mercy on the N64 or Here Comes the Pain on the PS2.

Isn't Def Jam Vendetta based on WWF No Mercy?

I'm kind of curious about some of the non-WWE wrestling games out there, both from Japan and from the indie scene, just to see what they bring to the table. I vaguely remember some wacky, Japanese, wrestling game for the PS2 that looked like a lot of fun. It had completely made up characters in it and I think featured some over the top attacks.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a WWE game done in an over the top style, kind of like WWF Wrestlemania: The Arcade Game. I miss those crazy, accessible sports games like NBA Jam or SSX Tricky. Pro wrestling is perfect for that type of thing. There was a WWE game some years ago that was supposedly really over the top that people liked. I think it was called WWE All Stars

I actually kind of miss when wrestling games were arcade based and accessible like that one from Capcom that got ported to SNES. It was the one with Haggar from Final Fight in it.

I think wrestling games have become too much like yearly sport sim games, and a lot of the fun has been lost as a result. I want to play some silly, fun, wrestling games like Rumble Roses

So to follow up on my previous post on making AEW exciting again, I would have Kamille debut at Double or Nothing as Toni Storm's mystery challenger and then beat her for the title. Important to note that this wouldn't necessarily mean that Kamille was the one behind the mysterious attacks. I would also encourage both ladies to really go out there and have the best match possible. I'd want it to be a match people talk about after the show is over. I'd let Toni Storm go out on a high note, while also getting Kamille's title reign off to a good start. This would be the best match of Storm's title run, and a match that would quickly establish in people's minds everything that Kamille is capable of. I'd be disappointed in both ladies if the match didn't get at least one this is awesome chant. I'd also have Mariah May at ringside for the match just to give it a little something extra.

[Raging Justice]

What kind of bums me out about the Willow/Tam thing is that Willow just defended her title against literally one of the top, upper echelon talents in Stardom. She just defeated the former world champion, a faction leader, and one of only two women in that company's history to hold the two top singles titles at the same time. Depending on who you ask, there's also a debate for Tam being the most popular woman in that company. That's a big deal for Willow, but months from now people will only remember Willow as a lame champion who lost her first title defense against Mercedes Moné because no one is even going to know that she fought Tam Nakano.

This will be the second time Willow has held a title for like a blink in time before losing it, that kind of sucks for her. She always gets pushed aside for bigger stars like Mercedes and Giulia. I'm not exactly the world's biggest Willow fan or anything, but I feel like she kind of deserves better than that, especially when less interesting people like Timeless Toni and Jade Cargill have been given what felt like ENDLESS title reigns that were repetitive and boring (and still ongoing in Toni's case). In the short time that Willow has held her TBS title I'd already rate her a better champion than Toni, Cargill, Statlander, Saraya, Thunder Rosa, Nyla Rose, and her predecessor Julia Hart too if I'm being honest.

She's got charisma, she can promo, she's decent enough in the ring, and her match with Tam (though completely ignored by AEW) and feud with Mercedes are actually more interesting than ANYTHING that happened when Statlander, Saraya, Rosa, Julia, and Cargill were champions. Also more interesting than every boring, predictable, meaningless title match and feud Timeless Toni Storm has had. I know Willow has to lose the title because Mercedes is just a bigger deal than her, but I hope they don't just have her discarded and forgotten afterward like Tony Kahn often does with former champions. I honestly don't think it would be a terrible idea to have Willow take Toni Storm's title after losing the TBS title to Mercedes. It immediately establishes that she's still a top dog in that division, and matchups with Mariah May or Mina Shirakawa or maybe even Kamille could be really interesting.

Toni Storm has not evolved her character in any way, shape, or form and hasn't elevated anyone. I'm not at all interested in seeing her have matches or feuds with people like Kamille, Shirakawa, May, or returning favorites like Britt Baker. Baker would actually totally no sell and bury Storm's character on the mic, which would actually be kind of hilarious now that I think about it. Baker would only need one promo to have the entire world think that Timeless Toni Storm is the lamest thing on planet earth. Britt Baker is THAT good and THAT vicious on the mic.

AEW never gives any of their women sustained pushes and it's one of the reasons many people just don't care about the division. They win a title, they lose it, and then they just flounder around doing nothing afterward. Saraya, Nyla, Statlander, Rosa, and to some extant even Shida and Riho feel like nobodies now.

I feel like WWE pushes some people too hard and AEW doesn't push anyone enough. I swear the two companies are like polar opposites, even when looking at their flaws.

[Reprise]

Isn't Def Jam Vendetta based on WWF No Mercy?

I'm kind of curious about some of the non-WWE wrestling games out there, both from Japan and from the indie scene, just to see what they bring to the table. I vaguely remember some wacky, Japanese, wrestling game for the PS2 that looked like a lot of fun. It had completely made up characters in it and I think featured some over the top attacks.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a WWE game done in an over the top style, kind of like WWF Wrestlemania: The Arcade Game. I miss those crazy, accessible sports games like NBA Jam or SSX Tricky. Pro wrestling is perfect for that type of thing. There was a WWE game some years ago that was supposedly really over the top that people liked. I think it was called WWE All Stars

I actually kind of miss when wrestling games were arcade based and accessible like that one from Capcom that got ported to SNES. It was the one with Haggar from Final Fight in it.

I think wrestling games have become too much like yearly sport sim games, and a lot of the fun has been lost as a result. I want to play some silly, fun, wrestling games like Rumble Roses

The WWE games are definitely more like sports simulator and annual sports games now. They forgot how to make these games FUN. In Smackdown Shut Your Mouth on PS2 you could go out to WWE New York, climb up onto the top of a flying helicopter and jump off onto your opponent. You could ride Undertaker's motorbike and run down your opponents. Remember that old Smackdown fist? You climb up onto the top of it to dive onto your opponents.

The WWE games have slowly brought back stuff like backstage areas, but they're so boring and sterile. It's not like the crazy stuff the old games had.

Yeah, there were two Def Jam games (Vendetta and Fight for NY) that were basically continuations of the N64 AKI developed wrestling games like No Mercy, although they went in a more of an over the top direction. They are really good.

AKI developed WCW vs nWo World Tour and WCW vs nWo Revenge on the N64 and basically invented the grapple system that is widely used in wrestling games today. They were so popular that WWE took notice and severed ties with Acclaim and moved to THQ who were publishing those WCW games and brought AKI with them to make the WWE games on the N64.

Anyways, THQ also got Yukes on board, who had been making the New Japan Pro Wrestling Toukon Retsuden games in Japan, to make the Smackdown games on PS1. Those ended up being so popular that unfortunately AKI were pushed aside once development moved over to the Gamecube and Yukes were asked to develop WWE games for both the PS2 and the Gamecube.

AKI had been working on a follow up to No Mercy on the N64, titled WWF Backlash, when they found out that THQ and WWE were cutting ties with them.

At that point, EA had taken over the WCW licence and had produced some pretty poor games. They saw AKI available and thought they had an opportunity to bring them in and revitalise the WCW games. So in early 2001 AKI begun work on 'WCW Mayhem 2' for the PS2.

And then Vince McMahon bought WCW...

So basically, what was going to be WWF Backlash, which later was going to be WCW Mayhem 2, eventually got used as the basis to create Def Jam Vendetta.

The game is good, but it's fairly bare bones. It's a fun solid game, but there aren't like ladder matches, cage matches or any of that kind of thing. It's more straight up wrestling game (albeit with a more over the top eccentric style).

The sequel, Fight for NY, is better in every way imaginable, but is also far less of a wrestling game. It still plays like a wrestling game, but now you spend very little time in a wrestling ring. It's now more of a street fighting game and you fight in bars, subways and so on. It's so much fun and there are loads of insane moves and crazy things you can do. Like in the Subway you can end a match by literally throwing your opponent onto the tracks into an incoming train, if you time it right. If I remember right, there is also one where you can throw your opponent out of the window off the top floor of a building.

If you haven't played the Def Jam games, I really recommend them, especially Fight for NY. The story mode in both games is great too.

I have and play a lot of wrestling games. Wrestlemania The Arcade game is a lot of fun. All Stars was also a really good attempt at doing a cartoony over the top arcade wrestling game.

Funnily enough, the recent AEW game Fight Forever had some really good ideas. They were attempting to create a good mixture of the old Def Jam, No Mercy and Smackdown style games. And they attempted fun stuff, like being able to smash opponents through the screen at the back, having loads of blood, stuff like thumbtacks and loads of weapons, being able to have exploding barbed wire matches etc. Unfortunately it just lacked content to keep you engaged. The story mode is pretty meh and can be beaten in a few hours (there's different storylines, so you can replay it, but it's not that fun).

[Raging Justice]

You know Toni Storm perfectly epitomizes one of AEW's main problems, not knowing what its identity is. You have wrestlers go on TV and talk about how AEW is about wrestling, not sports entertainment. Yet, AEW regularly shows us nonsense like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AEWOfficial/co ... oni_storm/

Toni Storm is more "sports entertainment" than anything WWE has done in the past two years. I literally can't think of anything in that time period as ridiculous as Timeless Toni Storm. Even R-Truth isn't this ridiculous.

This is another reason why AEW is failing, and I think it may actually be okay to say that at this point since all of their metrics are in the gutter right now.

AEW doesn't know what it is, because Tony Kahn doesn't know what it is, and so people are tuning out and moving on.

When people hear that AEW isn't that WWE crap and they tune into a show and see a ridiculous Toni Storm segment they are going to call bullshit on AEW and never watch it again.

I've watched a few AEW shows with a casual wrestling fan and she absolutely HATES Timeless Toni Storm. This is how most normal, every day people feel about that stupid gimmick

[Reprise]

It's not just Toni Storm. They have had a lot of weird attempts at doing more sports entertainment type stuff over the last year or so, mostly with mixed results. But the Continental Classic stuff was widely praised.

Some report came out a few months ago saying they would move away from some of that sports entertainment stuff and that they had noted the positive response the Continental Classic received.

Yet now they're doing all this stuff with the Elite taking over etc, and Jericho's learning tree crap, which is very sports entertainment like. I think in some respects they are both almost parodying that kind of thing, but it's possibly a bit too meta and self-indulgent for most people.

Its identity crisis is definitely a big factor. I think it only became more apparent when they introduced Collision and they were trying to create almost an entirely separate universe for Punk.

[Raging Justice]

I just think it's funny that with all of the problems AEW is having right now, Tony still thinks it's a great idea to have a grown, adult, woman continue to make an ass of herself on TV every week while still holding the title

Meanwhile, you have delusional online fans who keep praising Storm and every other dumb thing AEW does like they are in this little echo chamber completely oblivious to the company's failing ratings, attendance, and overall perception within the pro wrestling industry right now

Not to both Tony Kahn and online fans:

WAKE...THE...FUCK...UP!!!

I'm literally seeing people online right now say that TNA is putting on a better product than AEW

YES. THAT IS A REAL THING.