The truth about marriage in the west

[RadarScope1]

Oh for Christ's sake. The right-wing side of things largely just doesn't give a fuck either way anymore about gay marriage. Most of its opposition comes from the religious groups, while others simply argue that marriage shouldn't be handled by the national government anyway(they prefer either a federalist take, ie. states handle the issue, or figure no government should be bothering with marriage anyway). And many of us over here on the right are fine with homosexual civil unions, but we figure marriage deals more with religious institutions and it's really up to them, Meghan McCain be damned.

And for the record, Proposition 8 or whatever it was in California? Sure, Mormons funded the majority of the ads against it, but Mormons only make up 2% of the voting population there. You know who really killed that one? Ethnic minorities. The Latinos and African Americans voted against it en masse. Maybe you should go ask them what they think about homosexuals.

Well Ack, where I live, in the Ozarks, "conservative" = church-going, religious, pro-life, anti-gay marriage. The smart conservative people who just want smaller government and lower taxes don't exist here. 99 percent of the conservatives here are social conservatives who want to stick their nose in everyone's private biz. I probably should have qualified my statement, but I'm just so used to equating conservative with Bible thumper because that's my reality here.

[Erik_Twice]

The thing is. Why do you win by getting married that is not a produc of peer or social pressure (Eg. Economical benefits)? You get nothing and there's no need for a "mark of commitment". If you need a mark of commitment you are doubting about your mate's feeling as you need "proof". In fact, I would say there's no need for any kind of commitment, if there is it's because of social pressure.

@Lordofduct

I think I would have exploded and told the religious guy to fuck off. It takes a lot of nerve to cope that.

[lordofduct]

@Lordofduct

I think I would have exploded and told the religious guy to fuck off. It takes a lot of nerve to cope that.

At my grandads... I didn't have to. My grandma did it. I love that woman and her knife sharp tongue.

"If you dare put a cross anywhere in that room I will take it from the wall and cut your testicles off with it."

not verbatim, but pretty damn close!

My fav is how my cousin describes her, "She's the only woman I know who when she spits in the sink it sounds like rocks... scratch that, she's the only woman I know who spits in the sink."

I loves ya gram!

[MrPopo]

The thing is. Why do you win by getting married that is not a produc of peer or social pressure (Eg. Economical benefits)?

There are a large number of legal and economic benefits to getting married. There's the change in tax bracket, medical proxy rights, and privilaged speech, among others.

[Ack]

And many of us over here on the right are fine with homosexual civil unions, but we figure marriage deals more with religious institutions and it's really up to them, Meghan McCain be damned.

This still doesn't provide a sound rationale for not allowing gay marriage. I'm agnostic and I was able to get married. Atheists can get married. Though religious people definitely have a vested stake in what their traditions deem to be acceptable within their religion, marriage on the whole doesn't have to be a religious issue.

Thing is, I consider civil unions and marriage as the same thing, just to me it's a civil union when a religious affiliation is not involved. It's still the same idea in my eyes, but one has always held religious connotations to me. As everyone has stated, civil unions give tax benefits, though considering the amount of households where both spouses work, I wonder about the relevancy of some of it.

And Radarscope, I'm sorry that that is the extent of your exposure. Just rest assured, the right-wing side of things can be just as varied as the left(hence the "Coalition of the Right"), and there are plenty of topics we don't all agree with each other on.

[vash23n]

My wife and I got married when I was 27 and she was 24. We got married by a licensed justice of the peace, in a park by a river, with no mention of any god. We had lived together for 4 years and it was just a nice thing to do. It was a way of expressing our feelings for each other. We didn't need to do it, but did it for fun. We also only spent about 300 dollars on it (the cost of the JOP). After marriage, everything remained the same as before as we had expected. I am not sure how marriage causes stress on a lot of people and makes them miserable (as many have mentioned). Seems to me that if you are miserable before you get married, then you will be miserable after - seems that sometimes people expect getting married to fix any problems that exist in a relationship. I also think that living with your partner beforehand plays a big rule in a relationship's success, mainly in that it allows you to realize if you can tolerate each other. My wife and I had already been through many of the stresses involved with life (especially with being broke) before getting married. We lived through those and still loved each other and being around each other so getting married was just something fun to do. There are also plenty of practical reasons such as getting on each others insurance.

[vejita]

Yea, being married usually puts pressure on people, but I can see how it is a ritual just like graduating from school- you dress up nice, people say some nice things, and you all kinda gloat about going through the rite of passage along with everyone else. The ceremony really isn't important yet I think it should be enjoyable- but there's the pressure of status as well. Tradition holds that people get married when they're settled in careers or ready to start popping out kids in a 3-4 bedroom house with a fenced-in yard. Isn't almost every culture traditionally generous when there's a wedding, like someone gets a dowry or the ceremony is very expensive to show off the father's wealth... I don't care for it.

I never dreamed of my wedding day or anything like that, but I'd hate to have some typical formal setting where my hypocritical "religious" family got to see me in a church and gloat over their money...

Also, the gay marriage debate is just another way to argue that homosexuals should/should not be discriminated... Sure, a homosexual couple would want tax breaks but the reason married couples get tax breaks is to compensate for the economic strain of an unemployed wife or children. Would we have to then define who is the unemployed wife in the relationship? Would the tax breaks disappear if enough homosexual people got married, since women and everyone are enabled to make money on their own? Plus, a lot of times I hear support of gay marriage being banned because "someone" doesn't agree with a sexual lifestyle in a marriage, as though "straight sex" is sacred because you can produce offspring... Then there's the fear that homosexuals will raise kids and screw them over for life because the man-woman dynamic is absent... although anyone who knows a gay couple know that personalities are as varied and stereotypical as heterosexual people...

[Mozgus]

Yea, being married usually puts pressure on people, but I can see how it is a ritual just like graduating from school- you dress up nice, people say some nice things, and you all kinda gloat about going through the rite of passage along with everyone else. The ceremony really isn't important yet I think it should be enjoyable- but there's the pressure of status as well. Tradition holds that people get married when they're settled in careers or ready to start popping out kids in a 3-4 bedroom house with a fenced-in yard. Isn't almost every culture traditionally generous when there's a wedding, like someone gets a dowry or the ceremony is very expensive to show off the father's wealth... I don't care for it.

I never dreamed of my wedding day or anything like that, but I'd hate to have some typical formal setting where my hypocritical "religious" family got to see me in a church and gloat over their money...

Also, the gay marriage debate is just another way to argue that homosexuals should/should not be discriminated... Sure, a homosexual couple would want tax breaks but the reason married couples get tax breaks is to compensate for the economic strain of an unemployed wife or children. Would we have to then define who is the unemployed wife in the relationship? Would the tax breaks disappear if enough homosexual people got married, since women and everyone are enabled to make money on their own? Plus, a lot of times I hear support of gay marriage being banned because "someone" doesn't agree with a sexual lifestyle in a marriage, as though "straight sex" is sacred because you can produce offspring... Then there's the fear that homosexuals will raise kids and screw them over for life because the man-woman dynamic is absent... although anyone who knows a gay couple know that personalities are as varied and stereotypical as heterosexual people...

My dad was never there and my mom certainly did a number on me, so I may be biased in saying that strait couples are certainly not automatically licensed to raise children. I've known gay couples who would have made better parents than mine did. Hell, my landlords are an old gay couple, even. I also grew up 2 houses from a gay couple who really helped me understand that my parents were fucking up, and the divorce wasn't my fault, despite what my mom would tell me. Their place was somwhat of a safe zone for me at times.

And I think all the economical benefits of marriage need to go, especially since women fought for and won their equal rights. They just don't belong in this day and age. It's almost insulting they still exist.

[vash23n]

Yea, being married usually puts pressure on people, but I can see how it is a ritual just like graduating from school- you dress up nice, people say some nice things, and you all kinda gloat about going through the rite of passage along with everyone else. The ceremony really isn't important yet I think it should be enjoyable- but there's the pressure of status as well. Tradition holds that people get married when they're settled in careers or ready to start popping out kids in a 3-4 bedroom house with a fenced-in yard. Isn't almost every culture traditionally generous when there's a wedding, like someone gets a dowry or the ceremony is very expensive to show off the father's wealth... I don't care for it.

I never dreamed of my wedding day or anything like that, but I'd hate to have some typical formal setting where my hypocritical "religious" family got to see me in a church and gloat over their money...

Also, the gay marriage debate is just another way to argue that homosexuals should/should not be discriminated... Sure, a homosexual couple would want tax breaks but the reason married couples get tax breaks is to compensate for the economic strain of an unemployed wife or children. Would we have to then define who is the unemployed wife in the relationship? Would the tax breaks disappear if enough homosexual people got married, since women and everyone are enabled to make money on their own? Plus, a lot of times I hear support of gay marriage being banned because "someone" doesn't agree with a sexual lifestyle in a marriage, as though "straight sex" is sacred because you can produce offspring... Then there's the fear that homosexuals will raise kids and screw them over for life because the man-woman dynamic is absent... although anyone who knows a gay couple know that personalities are as varied and stereotypical as heterosexual people...

My dad was never there and my mom certainly did a number on me, so I may be biased in saying that strait couples are certainly not automatically licensed to raise children. I've known gay couples who would have made better parents than mine did. Hell, my landlords are an old gay couple, even. I also grew up 2 houses from a gay couple who really helped me understand that my parents were fucking up, and the divorce wasn't my fault, despite what my mom would tell me. Their place was somwhat of a safe zone for me at times.

And I think all the economical benefits of marriage need to go, especially since women fought for and won their equal rights. They just don't belong in this day and age. It's almost insulting they still exist.

I agree about the need to get over this debate over whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. Name all the religious, political, ethical reasons you can, I am constantly surprised that two people who love each other get shit for wanting to get married or adopt a child because they are the same sex. Meanwhile, any pair of lowlifes with drug problems and no means to take care of themselves can continue popping out as many children as they want without anyone caring because they are two different sexes. I know there is the child protection agency that steps into abusive situations to save kids, but I am sure we all know plenty of people who have kids and don't deserve them. Or who treat each other like shit and don't deserve to get married... but they are a different sex so it is right with... whoever.

I always wonder how this is in other countries.

[Ack]

Hey, that's cool. Personally I don't care, I think homosexuals can make loving parents and spouses as well, and we got a lot of foster kids that could use a nice parent. But some people don't. Hell, in some cultures they get around the problem by just killing them on the spot.

At this point, there's really not much more to say on it. We know where everybody stands, and we also know that nobody's going to change their opinions, no matter what information is presented to them. We're entrenched in our ideas, and that's how it's gonna be for a while more. I figure I'll probably lock this thread soon, since I just don't see what else we can say.

I'm just glad it didn't turn into a "I hate Miss California and she must be destroyed" thread.