The truth about marriage in the west

[Hatta]

Personally, I'm all in favor of long term monogamous relationships. That said, I don't see any reason for either the church or the state to get involved. Your situation with your mate is your business, no one elses.

Of course, that's not how most people see it. Most "normal" people see marriage as a status symbol.

[J T]

I am not from the west, the west to me is Europe and North America.

I am asking for information.
I always had the idea that in the "west" people tend to get married at an older age, like at least 29. Now this is not my fault, this is the media's fault!

That is what I see on tv and news. People are always afraid of commitment and responsibility, and that at a younger age they just want to enjoy life no worries. I also get this idea due to hearing about a lot of older people getting married for the first time when they are 46 or 55, sometimes 65!
I also see on tv that a lot of celebrities and others that have a bf or a gf, and they are living together for like years, and they even raise children(their own) , but they are not married(I think I heard Halle Berry say that on tv)...they say no reason to get married, weird thing is this is practically a marriage just not on paper. weird.

Though recently as I look into the web (even here) I was surprised that more and more "westerners" are at a young age(20's) are married with children.

Could please some one clear up the idea for me, how is the marriage situation over there, just curious. I am not being judgmental , I just want to get the right idea. The only thing I will judge is , if you are living with someone for years and got children together, I think you rather be married.

People in the West get married at all sorts of ages for all sorts of reasons. It's kind of hard to say that the West is any certain way. However, a quick google search shows that the average age at marriage in the USA for women is around 25-26 and the average age for men is around 27-28. It varies a lot across each state as well. I used to live in Utah where the Mormon boys would start looking to get married as soon as they came back from their missions (age 21) and the Mormon girls had been waiting for them to get home. Now I live in Washington, which is a more liberal place where most people have a high amount of formal education. People here are less inclined to think poorly of pre-marital sex or living together without marriage, and they often wait a significant amount of time to get married as they deliberate about who the right one for them will be. Here's a nice graph I found that explains the average age of marriage in relation to the divorce rates for each state in the USA:



I got married at the age of 31. I disagree with some of the negative comments made about marriage, though in years past I'm sure I said some of the same things. For me, I fell deeply in love with the woman that is now my wife. Before her, I never even knew I had the capacity for the kinds of feelings I now have for her. In the past, I had not cared for the idea of marriage-- I thought it was at best "just a piece of paper" and at worst "a ball and chain." However, my views began to change with her because our love is so intense and because we admire each other as individuals. Yet, individuals change and can grow apart, so I wanted to make a commitment to growing together. I wanted that commitment to be made publically before friends and family to represent the seriousness of that commitment and to rely on the support of those friends and family members to help us stay together when we inevitably do struggle (which we asked them all to agree to at the wedding ceremony). I never thought I would say this because it always sounded so cliche to me in the past, but my wedding was the best day of my life.

It's not that marriage is always happy and never a struggle, it's simply that you love the person enough to work through the struggle instead of disengaging from it. Committing for the long term allows for a more complex form of love where you shift and develop with another person there with you. It is challenging to not give yourself an out from a relationship, but it allows you to more fully be known by another person and to more fully know them. I suppose one could do that without marriage (gay couples are unfortunately denied any right to marriage if they wish for a long term commitment), but there is something about marriage that makes the commitment feel all the more real. That is why I chose to marry.

[RyaNtheSlayA]

I think marriage is fine when It's with somebody you truly love and are seriously commited too, and that they are the same way. But, just the way everybody here in the USA is, you know that those are going to be few and far between. I'd like to get married some day and have children, i'm just not going to hold my breath for it.

[RadarScope1]

You probably have this impression because TV shows in the states (like Friends) have tons of 35ish year old people that aren't married, none of the rich, spoiled Hollywood people can stay married longer a year or two. This definitely does not represent the average American picture. The average age in the states now is something like 27 or 28, which means lots of people get married younger and older than that, with many getting married in their late 20s. Lots of young dumb people get married here at an early age before they know who they really are or who the person they're marrying really is. Divorce is easy here and many people take advantage of that.

I kind of hate to get into a debate over this, since it's all about perception if you haven't been married -- and perception is reality in debates -- but a marriage is by no means "just a piece of paper" when entered into properly. It's some kind of "trap." I've seen what marriage can mean and how it can improve the happiness and stability of one's life. My own personal experience is one reason why I am in favor of gay marriage rights in the U.S. If the conservative folks are so pro-family they will not stand in the way of people who want to have stable, domestic, loving and responsible relationships WITH all of the 1,000-plus legal and societal benefits that come with being "official."

/rant (sorry in advance if I have derailed.....

[Ack]

If the conservative folks are so pro-family they will not stand in the way of people who want to have stable, domestic, loving and responsible relationships WITH all of the 1,000-plus legal and societal benefits that come with being "official."

Oh for Christ's sake. The right-wing side of things largely just doesn't give a fuck either way anymore about gay marriage. Most of its opposition comes from the religious groups, while others simply argue that marriage shouldn't be handled by the national government anyway(they prefer either a federalist take, ie. states handle the issue, or figure no government should be bothering with marriage anyway). And many of us over here on the right are fine with homosexual civil unions, but we figure marriage deals more with religious institutions and it's really up to them, Meghan McCain be damned.

And for the record, Proposition 8 or whatever it was in California? Sure, Mormons funded the majority of the ads against it, but Mormons only make up 2% of the voting population there. You know who really killed that one? Ethnic minorities. The Latinos and African Americans voted against it en masse. Maybe you should go ask them what they think about homosexuals.

[lordofduct]

Marriage...

We marry at all kinds of ages here. The last few years for me being the brunt of most of my friends getting married (22 - 27).

Marriage disliked as an institution. I know a lot of people who are in monogomous relationships but won't go and do the full deal. And I kinds understand the reasoning behind it... they are against the religious institution of marriage. I still would like to get married in my life and it has nothing to do with religion.

Which leads to Gay marriage. Marriage doesn't have to be a religious matter. And for the most part isn't already.

As I said I would love to get married when I find the right person. But I really don't care for the church bit. If that's what she wants, ok, but I'm certainly not pushing for it. And we don't have to. When you go get a marriage license, no where does it say you are required to have a God damn wedding in a chapel of any sort. A freakin' notary can do it on a back porch over some beers for christ sake and I've seen it a million times.

In the same respect, what the hell does it matter if a gay couple goes down and gets that shiny little piece of paper??? As someone already said, keep the religion and state part separate, which they already are. This should be a no freakin' brainer! Just because a gay couple can get that paper doesn't mean the Roman Catholic church needs to let them have a wedding in their church.

Crap, I'm straight and I'm not allowed to marry in a Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, or several other churches/temples. Why??? Cause I'm not that religion! That won't accept me. And that doesn't hurt my feelings, cause I don't accept them either.

They can go on their merry freakin' way and wed all the members of their 'community' all they want. Us Atheists and Homosexuals, and other sinners can form our own system of monogomous ritual. The only similarity is that ALL of us go down to the town hall or clerk of court and get that stupid shiny piece of fucking paper!


As Ack said. There's even a recent interview I saw with a Roman Catholic minister (that's what they are right??? minister, pope, whatever the fuck they call themselves... I'm a tea bagger in my faith ). Keep the state matter separate from the religious matter as IT ALREADY IS! And no, the states themselves don't have to be making this choice themselves. Make it fucking federal, because when it comes to my taxes, it's a federal matter. When I die, I own land in more then one state, so it's a federal matter. If I get gay married in Mass, then take a trip to Florida and get in an accident, and my husband needs to make life choices for me while I'm out of it... it's a federal matter. Make it federal so that way in these cases when a state "doesn't recognize" your out of state license in such matters you don't have to appeal the courts and other stupid nonsense just to get the fucking rights that a straight couple would have recognized no matter what.

And it's hardly a law. Just emphasize the fact that "religious marriage" and "a marriage license" are two completely different things! Fuck if you want to "protect the sanctity of marriage"... then call a marriage license a "state recognized monogomous contract". There your precious little word is protected you fucking zealots! (not talking to anyone here, I'm not sure if any of you guys are zealots).




And all of this is why I understand why a lot of people are against the institution of marriage. It's a headache of bullshit that alienates large groups of non-juedo-christian individuals. I thought this country separates religion and state. It's an ancient ritual that some of us think is archaic and isn't necessary in a modern world with so many cultures living side by side. My faith, or my lack of faith, doesn't have this tradition. No where in the doctrine of NO GOD does it say marriage is necessary... cause there is NO DOCTRINE. The one thing I agree is necessary, a federal record of familial relations between people made outside of the normal maternal/paternal birth process. If I want to include a stranger into the wealth (or lack there of) of my family, and give them federal rights to my estate, then we need to record this federally. And that's all a "monogomous contract" should be doing.

You ritual, I don't care. Kill a fucking goat for all I care. But while this nation condones injecting jued-christian ideals into every fucking action that I make about legal matters. I totally get why people refuse it.

I'm just not the prickily pear who's going to refuse the "swearing to God on a holy bible" at court because, I get what attempting to do. I still don't agree with it. Cause it's funny, my swearing on this bible means NOTHING to me. I could lie up a storm and no God is going to smite my ass. But whatever, I take it on word, you're trying to stop me from commiting perjury. And I'm not gonna, it's just that God's not the one keeping me from doing it... it's the fact the legal system in our nation depends upon it... and I'm not gonna mess that up.

Which reminds me... "thall shall not take God's name in vain"... this is also a Jewish belief too. Doesn't this mean you can't "swear" upon his name!?

[J T]

And many of us over here on the right are fine with homosexual civil unions, but we figure marriage deals more with religious institutions and it's really up to them, Meghan McCain be damned.

This still doesn't provide a sound rationale for not allowing gay marriage. I'm agnostic and I was able to get married. Atheists can get married. Though religious people definitely have a vested stake in what their traditions deem to be acceptable within their religion, marriage on the whole doesn't have to be a religious issue.

[lordofduct]

You know another place I can't fucking stand religion butting their damn nose in!

Death.

I've been to 30 funerals in the past 5 years. 5 of which were for immediate family members. My entire family is NOT Christian or religious at all. Except for my brother Ian... he always liked the whole Jesus bit.

But when it came time for the freakin' funeral at the funeral parlor. Every single one demanded we "have a word about God". At Ian's funeral I told them that was fine, Ian would want that. My Granddad??? NO! My grandfather has been atheist since 1920.... before people even fuckin' heard of the shit. Same with my father and step mother. No we don't have to talk about God.... why? Because for some STUPID reason I need to pay you some ridiculous amount of money to dispose of my families remains. But in the fact that I'm shoveling tons of money in the that furnance along with my FUCKING FATHER... you're going to do what I TELL YOU TO DO.

So respect my non-faith fucker. You don't know the fat man in the casket. I do, and he would knock you on your ass for saying Jesus is accepting him into his arms right now. As my pops said, "I'd rather rot in hell then believe in God".


And yes, I'm a FOURTH generation atheist. To me as a child, or anything. This meant nothing. I didn't know what the fuck our title was as a kid because it wasn't like we ran around calling ourselves atheists, it didn't matter. We just didn't go to church or believe in God. This doesn't mean we didn't have our own familial traditions. We still got married in the sense of mother/father, we still buried our dead and had some ritual for that. Just like the Japs, Russians, Samolians, Inuits, and every fucking human has. And just like half of this world... We don't talk about Christ at our fucking funerals! You know who we talk about??? The fucking dead guy getting placed under ground or being incinerated.


Not to say you God fearing people have the ritual ass backwards. No it's ritual. Do it however you fucking please. But you know what if I walked into your funeral and started mumbling satanist scripture you'd go ape shit. So when you start mumbling Christian scripture in mine... it's just as offensive. It's like you are pissing all over the graves of my family.

[Mozgus]

But when it came time for the freakin' funeral at the funeral parlor. Every single one demanded we "have a word about God". At Ian's funeral I told them that was fine, Ian would want that. My Granddad??? NO! My grandfather has been atheist since 1920.... before people even fuckin' heard of the shit. Same with my father and step mother. No we don't have to talk about God.... why? Because for some STUPID reason I need to pay you some ridiculous amount of money to dispose of my families remains. But in the fact that I'm shoveling tons of money in the that furnance along with my FUCKING FATHER... you're going to do what I TELL YOU TO DO.

Let's have a word about god = Let me peddle my wares to you in your time of grief, even though you already paid me a ridiculous amount of money to stand here and talk about some fucker I don't know, or care about.

[dlmvii]

Let's have a word about god = Let me peddle my wares to you in your time of grief, even though you already paid me a ridiculous amount of money to stand here and talk about some fucker I don't know, or care about.

However, as we all know from Cube Zero, if anyone ever asks you to affirm your belief in god...you better say yes. Otherwise bad stuff happens.