Shenmue III Release Topic

[pierrot]

That is a really inventive way of tackling your issues with the story, Sload, so I don't mean to just dismiss it out of hand, but I would personally be really disappointed with that ending. It seems like you got a lot less out of the story than I did. If I had to summarize it, Shenmue III is really all about the mirrors: Where they came from, what purpose they serve, how they related to Ryo's father, etc. Then there's also some continuation of Ryo's spiritual journey, in tandem with Shenhua, and some small extra details about the Chi You Men. I really think your criticisms of the story, in the context of Niaowu, are valid, but I just don't think it's worthwhile to curtail the story like you're suggesting. I don't know what the breakdown would be for backers who share my perspective, but personally, I backed the game to see a continuation of the original vision. I think you and I might see things fundamentally differently about where the series is going; I feel it's all building to something that's worth the investment, but I get the feeling you don't think the series is really going anywhere. That's okay, I just disagree. I do agree that the majority of Niaowu is underwhelming in terms of the narrative, and story elements, though.

I can tell you exactly why that pawn shop was set up in the final area. It's the same reason why the first page of the fighting tutorial basically just says to mash face buttons, and hit the R2 button: Yu wanted anyone who played the game to be able to finish it. I get the sense that he doesn't think much of the average gamer's resourcefulness, and I don't really blame him. I've watched some people play the game, and it seems like modern games have just made people Charmin soft. So rather than hear complaints about how they got stuck with no healing items for combat, and such (even though they were given a warning that they wouldn't be able to return), there's a free Snake Power drink for the people rushing, and an opportunity to get more by completing a set of the capsule toy keys. Is it heavy handed? Yeah. Is it necessary because a lot of people would probably just blow by it without thinking twice, and potentially cry foul about not having enough healing for the final boss fight? Also probably yes. It does feel kind of out of place, and obnoxious to have to go through finding some useless items, but I also thought it was sort of silly in a good way; like the humor in later Bruce Lee movies, or a lot of Jackie Chan films. It is a Kung Fu experience, after all.

I'm happy that it seems like you had a pretty decent time with it overall, anyway.

[Reprise]

The castle area is like that because the final act was supposed to take place in the third area, Baisha, which was cut. The pawn shop and side quest, I believe, are leftovers from that cut content and was part of the stretch goals for Baisha. I think they included the minimum amount they needed to to say they still included those stretch goals. I agree, it's kinda silly.

Niao Sun is a major character and I think her lack of real introduction or development is again down to Baisha being cut. She's one of the main villians and characters in the story and will hopefully play a larger role in Shenmue 4. Her artwork and character designs have been around since before the first game was released.

Whilst we're tearing the game to shreds ( ), how disappointing was Chai's return? Also, I feel (again, possibly down to budget) that the translation was done by someone who hasn't played the first two games much recently (or at all).

[Sload Soap]

Okay, that make more sense then with regards the pawn shop. It probably would have been best to just leave the shop and the veg stall unmanned but if it was a stretch goal then I guess it had to be squeezed in somewhere. As I say, I'm not saying that my idea for the story is how it should have gone down, rather trying to illustrate that with some fairly basic writing techniques you can get some closure. If it was actually up to me I would swap Shenmue 2 for 3 in the story and have Kowloon be the finale for the series.

I get annoyed with Suzuki as a writer because he is clearly incapable of self-editing and doesn't workshop his stuff. Niao Sun is a case in point. As far as I recall, no one actually refers to her by name in the game. So why is she here now right at the end? Any writer worth their salt will have a drawer full of ideas that they loved but just couldn't fit in. Suzuki isn't a writer so his drawer is empty. It's all in there for better or often worse. What also doesn't help that is Shenmue is synonymous with him and he exerts so much control that, despite this game having I think three credited writers, his bad plotting overrides everything.

It's kind of a weird juxtaposition to him as a producer/programmer where if we look at games like Out Run, Virtua Racing and especially Virtua Fighter he is incredibly, almost obsessively detail orientated. This does come through in Shenmue of course with its recreation of the real world. That detail ends however we get to story telling. He is just too sloppy with the plot and I genuinely think he doesn't understand story structure. He writes as a teen does where he thinks that a story is just a series of connected events and not as an actual writer would where those interconnected events have to mean something.

I'm also frustrated that because of his lack of ability with the pen, each game seems to reset Ryo's development both in terms of his character development and the more game-y qualities we have over him in battle.

So, story wise Ryo is still easily duped out of his cash and still blunders into situations without thinking. He should have a bit more of an edge to him by now, perhaps willing to bend or break the rules a bit more. I don't expect him to start gunning his enemies down or owt but a bit of light breaking and entering or intimidation of someone who isn't a random goon wouldn't go amiss.

Combat wise, there always seems to be another Kung Fu master who mocks Ryo and says he is unready despite all the evidence from previous games that he deffo is ready. These guys aren't just mocking Ryo, they are mocking us the player. Like, we've personally beat 70 gang members into comas and this was before we set off to train with a bunch of renowned marital arts experts in Hong Kong. We then emerged victorious from the street fighting pits of Kowloon before besting a man almost literally twice Ryo's size in single combat. Ryo is a beast. He's the Dragon of Dobuita but that isn't really reflected ingame.

After all my bashing I am sort of hopeful we will see Shenmue 4 as I did actually enjoy a lot of my time in Shenmue 3. The level of detail and beauty of the world is quite outstanding considering it's relatively low budget. I loved wandering the streets and meadows of Bailu and Niaowu, at least once the game let me. All the daft mini-games and little side quests are what endears us to this series. Herb picking and Chobu hunting are both strangely fun to do while also giving us a genuine reason to explore the world. I do like the Kung Fu metre as it gives sense of progression when it's not being ignored while it does feel like Ryo is getting stronger with training. It also gives you a reason to seek out move scrolls that in the previous two games felt a bit superfluous as you could always fall back on the standard moveset. I'm iffy on the stamina drain, it can be annoying and would be game ruining in basically any other action game barring Shenmue but there isn't enough combat for it to become an issue. Before it's jibbed off, I did really like the late night chats with Shenhua as she and Ryo get to know each other. Even Face Off is kind of fun in a goofy way. And the music is once again top notch.

While it obviously isn't a Triple A title, it never felt like a kickstarter project. That budget may also be it's saviour as with the team in place and the assets made up, I can imagine it wouldn't actually be too difficult for Deep Silver to justify another installment although it may have to be digital only and possibly Epic Store exclusive. That's speculation though. But if we do get Shenmue 4, can Mr Suzuki perhaps just step back a touch and let an actual writer finish his story? Please?

[pierrot]

I don't know Sload, we just might never see eye-to-eye on the story, and that's all right. I see most of the beats, particularly in Shenmue III, as sort of utilitarian links to the immediate sequence of main story gameplay. I find the storytelling aspects of the series to be founded on a lot of the traditions of Japaneses literature. The characters tend to be a bit stoic, so often symbolism, particularly with imagery related to nature, and aphorisms are the literary devices that are usually used to embellish the exposition. I'm not saying that Yu is Natsume Souseki, or anything like that, but the parts of the story you seem to be focused on, I don't find those things to amount to much, proportionally, of the the overall story. I think you could potentially be right that some of the basic scenarios that play out over different parts of the games aren't exceptionally entertaining for a lot of people, but they work well enough for me. I find they tend to fit with Ryo's growth as a fighter, and a person.

I really disagree that Ryo is actually "ready," and that's a huge point of the story. I feel. Ryo is absolutely not ready. He's just barely getting by. I know it's been twenty years since the first game was released, so it seems like a really long time, but for most people's in-game time (I happened to end my playthrough at almost the beginning of June, but probably more average playthroughs would end around the middle of April) Ryo's only about five months removed from the death of his father. The kid is still grieving. That aspect is really subtle, and it was probably more clear in the second game to begin with, but it potentially doesn't show up much in the translation anyway. Also, I don't think it makes sense for his character to become more chaotic in morality. It might be more cathartic for the player, but he's way too altruistic. I think Ren exists in part to act as more of that player catharsis. To me, it makes sense for Ryo to be that way, though, since he's really just a fairly typical 80s Japanese kid who hasn't realized his inner strength yet, as Shenhua would say.

In the same way, from the martial arts perspective, if Ryo is eating, breathing, and sleeping Kung Fu for about three months, then he's probably going to make considerable gains in his abilities over that time. He's not exactly doing that, though, and a lot of the time he doesn't have a ton of instruction either. I have a bit of formal training in competitive boxing, and martial arts, but not a whole lot, so just from my perspective, it makes sense that after street fighting like crazy in Kowloon he would be able to take down Togyu, but after not even really sparring with anyone for a while he would get beat up by a burly thug out in the sticks. I find it to be really more accurate to real fight training that if he doesn't keep up that level of competition, some of the preparedness for a real fight is going to be lost. Also, just because Togyu is massive, doesn't necessarily mean he was exceptionally skilled as a fighter.

One last thing though: Does it really matter if we're introduced to Niao Sun by name at this point? At what point would she have dropped her name? Does some mook just say it? I mean, sure, it could be worked in, but to what end? Just to have a name? So, back to the original question, how important is that really at this juncture in the story? I feel like it emphasizes more of the mysteriousness of her character that she's still unnamed. I would agree that it's not standard, but I just don't see it as a problem within the context of the narrative. Also, it's potentially moot, since it seems like a DLC scenario might involve the boat from Bailu to Niaowu.

Even though we might not be in agreement about much with the story in Shenmue III, I do enjoy talking about it on this level. My thing is really that I thought the story in the original Yakuza was complete ass, and I would hate to see someone come in as a writer, and make it feel more like Yakuza. That might make it a bit more commercially viable, but I would potentially hate it. However, I am really hopeful that Yu might be able to successfully negotiate a deal with Sega for making Shenmue IV.

[Reprise]

I feel like you both make really good points. I don't have much to add really, but I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion. What I will say though is I love the story Yu Suzuki is crafting with Shenmue, but do agree that in terms of each game's story, the third entry is the weakest in the series so far. That doesn't mean I wanted it to end the series, but I do feel like there was some fantastic opportunities to expand on Iwao and the mirror's history in Bailu and that much of what happened in Niaowu could have been trimmed. I really wish Baisha hadn't been cut. I bet the story and pacing would have been much better with it included, and the ending would be less abrupt.

[pierrot]

Oh, I forgot about Chai: I understand feeling like he was done a little wrong in SIII, but I always saw him as sort of a goofy, idiot lackey anyway. I also understand why Yu would kind of be pushing him as a recurring character now, since he's so outlandish. I feel like his room in the castle really played up his sort of joke-character appeal. Ultimately he's always just been sort of a nuisance for Ryo, and I felt like that continued in this game. This is somewhat unrelated, but was Chai supposed to be part of the chapter on the boat to Hong Kong? I can't remember if that was something that was confirmed, or if it was something I just sort of brought myself to believe.

On a side note, I was thinking about how Niaowu seemed to exist in basically a fully formed state back in 2017 for the preview trailer, and it made me think that Bailu probably was as well. I wonder if they actually already had Baisha in place too, just without a lot of the details, mini-games, scenes, npcs, etc. I wonder if it's possible that it gets used as part of DLC, or a sequel, or something.

[Reprise]

Oh, I forgot about Chai: I understand feeling like he was done a little wrong in SIII, but I always saw him as sort of a goofy, idiot lackey anyway. I also understand why Yu would kind of be pushing him as a recurring character now, since he's so outlandish. I feel like his room in the castle really played up his sort of joke-character appeal. Ultimately he's always just been sort of a nuisance for Ryo, and I felt like that continued in this game. This is somewhat unrelated, but was Chai supposed to be part of the chapter on the boat to Hong Kong? I can't remember if that was something that was confirmed, or if it was something I just sort of brought myself to believe.

On a side note, I was thinking about how Niaowu seemed to exist in basically a fully formed state back in 2017 for the preview trailer, and it made me think that Bailu probably was as well. I wonder if they actually already had Baisha in place too, just without a lot of the details, mini-games, scenes, npcs, etc. I wonder if it's possible that it gets used as part of DLC, or a sequel, or something.

My main issue with Chai could be down to the translation, but it's written as if Ryo has never met him before. In fact, in the notebook I don't think Ryo even refers to him by his name until one of the thugs tells you he's called Chai. It's all a bit bizarre really and just really underwhelming. I expected Ryo to react with something like "it's you! Just what the hell are you doing here?" or something, but instead he just kinda looks blank and talks about the "creepy hunchback guy". My other issue is he feels shoehorned in for the sake of fan service and is treated as a main villain, despite really serving no purpose within the overall story. It feels like his reintroduction doesn't really serve a purpose.

Regarding Baisha, I don't know anything about what it's supposed to be like, but if you watch the original teaser trailer and the unreleased uncut version that was shown to press (there's cam footage on Youtube) then you'll notice parts of the final act of the game are in the trailers but actually occurring in an entirely different area which I can only presume is Baisha, for example the fight with the final muscular thug right at the end of the game originally took place at the Great Wall of China.

I really hope Yu Suzuki gives an in depth interview into the development of Shenmue 3 and what was cut, what was changed, how his vision altered over the course of 18 years and what impact the various cuts, but most importantly Baisha's removal, had on the game and story.

Going back to Chai, yes it was indeed confirmed that the original chapter 2 in Shenmue 2 took place on the boat trip between Japan and Hong Kong. I can't remember the exact story details, but it involved battling Chai. It was cut from the game before release on the Dreamcast. The XBox version of the game included it as a manga storyboard that could be unlocked. Yu Suzuki gave an interview a few years back saying he was considering repurposing the chapter into Shenmue 3, but I guess he either decided against it or it got cut again...

[pierrot]

My main issue with Chai could be down to the translation.

It's not just the translation. Ryo doesn't totally acknowledge him in the Japanese script, either, and refers to him as, 'ano neko-ze yarou' ['that hunchback (lit. cat-backed) loser'], which is pretty typical of the pet names he gives to thugs and stuff, but it's sort of up to interpretation whether or not Ryo really knows him. This is one of those things where I think Yu might have been trying to have things both ways in this third installment. I'm pretty sure Yu uses Ryo's character as sort of the eyes of the player. In interviews lately, Yu has referred to Ryo (kind of ironically, I guess based on things he's heard about the character from others over the last 18 years) as 'the world's most awkward guy,' and that's obviously because of how oblivious Ryo seems to be, and how little personality he appears to have, most of the time. I think with Chai, it's sort of splitting the difference between series veterans, and newcomers. So in Japanese, I find that if the person playing it doesn't know Chai, he'd probably assume that Ryo doesn't really know Chai, and vice versa. There are a few other things in the game that seem to work kind of like this as well, and I sort of feel it's part of the reason Ryo starts off at level 1 in combat this time around, etc. (Even though you'd only get the boost to move strengths in SII if you carried over a save file, anyway.)

I haven't really gone back to analyze this, but I feel like Ryo, when not trying to gather details on characters, doesn't really use enemies' names. The main exception being Lan DI, since that's his primary focus. Otherwise, I think he might see someone like Chai, who he's presumably moved well beyond in terms of skill, as just beneath him. Particularly with this game, though, I'm almost positive Ryo doesn't use any of the enemy characters' names. I will say that I felt the look into Chai's room had some amount of familiarity in Ryo's speech. I also feel Chai still plays that same role he did in the first game of basically being a scout for Lan Di, though. I think it kind of continues his motive of climbing the ranks in the Chi You Men, and that potentially informs some of Niao Sun's motives, as well as potentially foreshadowing some of the political motivations within the organization.

Regarding Baisha, I don't know anything about what it's supposed to be like, but if you watch the original teaser trailer and the unreleased uncut version that was shown to press (there's cam footage on Youtube) then you'll notice parts of the final act of the game are in the trailers but actually occurring in an entirely different area which I can only presume is Baisha, for example the fight with the final muscular thug right at the end of the game originally took place at the Great Wall of China.

Yeah, I was watching that trailer again, today, and noticed the change of scenery for that fight. I didn't realize Baisha was supposed to be near the Great Wall, but given the ending, I could easily see Baisha being part of the sequel, at least.

Going back to Chai, yes it was indeed confirmed that the original chapter 2 in Shenmue 2 took place on the boat trip between Japan and Hong Kong. I can't remember the exact story details, but it involved battling Chai. It was cut from the game before release on the Dreamcast. The XBox version of the game included it as a manga storyboard that could be unlocked. Yu Suzuki gave an interview a few years back saying he was considering repurposing the chapter into Shenmue 3, but I guess he either decided against it or it got cut again...

I always forget where those comic strips come from. Thanks for posting that. So, about that chapter, though, during the Shenmue III release interview with the IGN Japan guy, they were talking about the boat chapter, and Yu stopped the assistant director from giving too many details about it, and sort of hinted that they might still use it going forward. So he hasn't totally forgotten about it.


Oh, also, I was watching the IGN Japan TGS 2019 interview again, and Yu was talking about how initially, particularly with Bailu, it was going to be more of a "closed world" in this game, but at some point in production, they just started adding things to Bailu, making it more open world, and eventually Niaowu was being expanded as well. This to me sort of explains how relatively short story scenarios were stretched out over exploring these large areas. It's tough, because I think Baisha and Niaowu are immensely entertaining, and rich areas, but I would have potentially liked more of a focus on the story.

[Reprise]

I always forget where those comic strips come from. Thanks for posting that. So, about that chapter, though, during the Shenmue III release interview with the IGN Japan guy, they were talking about the boat chapter, and Yu stopped the assistant director from giving too many details about it, and sort of hinted that they might still use it going forward. So he hasn't totally forgotten about it.


Oh, also, I was watching the IGN Japan TGS 2019 interview again, and Yu was talking about how initially, particularly with Bailu, it was going to be more of a "closed world" in this game, but at some point in production, they just started adding things to Bailu, making it more open world, and eventually Niaowu was being expanded as well. This to me sort of explains how relatively short story scenarios were stretched out over exploring these large areas. It's tough, because I think Baisha and Niaowu are immensely entertaining, and rich areas, but I would have potentially liked more of a focus on the story.

It's weird, because Yu Suzuki definitely more than hinted he was going to reuse the original boat chapter in Shenmue 3 between Bailu and Niaowu (or maybe it would have been between Niaowu and Baisha and the fight between Ryo and Chai in the fortified castle area was the replacement when Baisha was cut). Yu Suzuki does seem to want to use it at some point.

BTW about Shenmue 3's plot and story, there was an interview in 2010ish and Yu Suzuki stated that Shenmue 3, unlike 1 and 2, would expand inward rather than outward, being more about the relationship between Shenhua and Ryo. I think it might have always intended to be light on story, but read here for yourself: https://archive.ph/20160622171916/http: ... uki-part-2

[pierrot]

Yeah, I remember him talking about that, but hadn't read the article in a while. I kind of hate when English-speaking outlets do interviews with Japanese developers, since I can't read the original transcriptions, but after reading that interview again, it sounds like Yu was probably able to implement that fairly faithfully to his plan in SIII. That's part of the reason I feel more critical of the story in Niaowu, since the Shenhua conversations are such a big part of the Bailu section, and I love seeing the subtle ways Shennhua's interactions with Ryo change. It was really well done, and even in that IGN TGS interview, he mentioned that it would probably take at least 10 loops through the game to see all of the conversation tree between them. So that element seems like it was held over both from the end of Shenmue II, and in a way that Yu had planned out, but maybe it's just that the proportion of their conversations relative to NPCs wasn't as anticipated since they ended up adding a lot more NPCs for diversions, and things. I think it's very likely, considering the final scene in the game, that Shenmue IV will still have the character perspectives as a major element of the game.

I've been seeing a lot of things about potentially cut content in the series recently, like with the sword fight they mentioned wanting to do that the Dreamcast was going to be able to handle (I really want to see Shenhua in a sword fight with someone in the next game), and a village that Miyawaki mentioned in his interview in the early days of the kickstarter, which basically sounds like the Shaolin Temple.

I was kind of thinking of loading up my save at the end of Niaowu to finish up some of the collectable stuff I didn't finish, and then I was just considering doing a replay in NG+ on Hardest. For some reason Asamoya no Nami Oto (finally found a recording without copious amounts of clipping) popped into my head, and I ended up reading through the liner notes in the Orchestra Version album. It's this really great poem that feels like it supports a lot of what I've come away with from the story. In particular there's this passage toward the end that mentions Ryo's paralyzed heart starting to become unfrozen by the support of close friends; awakening a new sense of strength and courage; marking the beginning of a new journey. The poem seems to cover more of the greater story ark than what we've seen so far, though. I started thinking I might want to just go ahead and replay the entire series now, but I was really hoping to keep finishing off some new games for a while.

Dammit! I love this series too much. I also found a recording of the music in the Save Shenmue temple that totally wrecked me the first time I went in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRc7Gw4_4M. That may be my new favorite song from the series. It does some serious damage to me. Did anyone else realize that the pond in back turns into the firefly pond at night, and that Shenhua hangs out in back there to allow you to keep playing face janken with her? Speaking of subtle things that can easily go unnoticed, I was watching the IGN Japan video review the other day (by Esra; which was a really great review all around), and about lost my mind when I saw that Lin and Birei hang out together at the river near Jyo's house in Bailu, where one of the secret fishing spots are. I'm sure there are just all kinds of little details I missed, even after more than 100 hours of play time.