Together Retro: First-Person Dungeon Crawlers

[nullPointer]

For the record, the second game puts a lot more emphasis on narrative, but the first game is the only one that really has a story consistent with the title of the games. I really like the story of the first game, although it is really subtle, and most of the story moments happen in just a few interactions in towns. Might I suggest this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk4BFIp6G8. It's the OVA adaptation of one of the books, and is the basis for the Famicom game. The stories are functionally the same, but the OVA provides all of the backstory, and a lot of the more nuanced details lost in the game. The stories aren't identical, though.

I'm glad you're enjoying it on some level at least. The backgrounds tend to change by area. I think things starts to pick up a bit once you get to Bien, personally.

Yes definitely! I didn't mean to sound like I was ripping on the game necessarily. And you're correct about the subtle storytelling going on here. I really dig the completely bonkers set of characters you interact with over the course of the game. I also really enjoy games that reward you the more deeply you immerse yourself. I mentioned an 'American Gods' before connection before, and it's still a recurring theme. Much like American Gods, Megami Tensei drops in tons of characters and creatures from various pantheons and mythos. It can be fun just looking up the cultural origins of all these various in-game denizens (or in some cases trying to determine the referential connections).

Thanks for passing along the link to the anime! I'll definitely be checking that out a bit later.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I wish I could fiddle effectively with the PC Engine CD versions. They look really cool.

[marurun]

You could always try nabbing an ISO and emulating it and seeing of the English mode has enough English in it to render the game playable.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I'm trying to remember if I downloaded it or not. I grabbed a lot of the RPGs for the system regardless of whether they were translated or not. Perhaps in the future we'll see more translations for the system as we eventually run out of Super Famicom RPGs worth translating. Not that I'm complaining! I've got a massive backlog just in the currently translated side to keep me busy for much of my life.

I'm stoked for those Legend of Xanadu translations, though.

[Nemoide]

Man, Wizardry looks like such a great game and The Dark Spire has definitely whet my appetite for it. I'll probably end up playing it on the Apple II. But before I do that I want to play Ultima V. But before that, I'm going to need to take a break from these kinds of super-old CRPGs because they can be overwhelming!
I realize Dark Spire isn't actually an old CRPG, but it's so old-school in its approach that I forget that while playing it.

I'm almost exclusively playing it in "classic" mode, which really captures that retro-computer charm. While modern mode has more detail and certainly isn't bad, I feel like having textures on the walls is more distracting than helpful and I just love the blippy-bloopy classic soundtrack.
The subject of map-making came up earlier and I'm definitely someone who generally prefers not making maps if I can avoid it, so I love The Dark Spire's automap, especially when I'm teleported. Of course it doesn't show your position unless you cast a spell or use a special item, so you need a good sense of direction anyway (especially for dark rooms in which you can't see anything).

I ended up breaking down and using GameFAQs for a few puzzles last night: to do a necromancy ritual, you need candles and even though I HAD candles, you have to use DIFFERENT candles that are obtained by eating a cake I had sitting in my inventory. There were some clues that should have pointed me in that direction, so that was my own failing. I also couldn't find a monster for a quest and even though I had visited the right room previously, you have to enter the area, go through a certain door, and then come back to that area through a secret entrance. I don't know if there were any clues guiding me to do that! Plus I'm looking at the requirements for some secondary classes and know I'm going to be in for a chore. My halfling thief needs two more points in strength to be a wizard and cast mage spells, but upping the strength of a halfling is EXPENSIVE in terms of experience points. Oh well, I know this will make my party way stronger for the endgame.

But really, even using a guide, this game isn't easy. I'm comfortable exploring, I generally go into combat feeling optimistic that I can take down any foe, but I'm still occasionally blindsided and end up with a bunch of dead party members requiring I load up a save. I know "for-real" Wizardry is ten times more brutal, since it auto-saves with every step so you can't abuse saves, but I think it sounds fun.

I feel completely hooked on The Dark Spire. I like how the game requires you to really learn SO MUCH about the dungeon, it really makes you take your time and try to understand the system and mechanics. Even with the story, nothing is too obvious. It starts off with an evil wizard who captured a princess, but along the way you meet pirates, a tribe of Amazons, a werewolf cult, a one-winged angel, an evil guy who used the spirit of a slain hero to create a magical barrier and you have to call up his spirit to learn how to break the barrier, and a mysterious woman who needs your help on every floor. There seems to be a connection between most of these things, but it isn't entirely clear at the moment.

[Erik_Twice]

Don't forget that there are PC Engine CD releases for Wizardry I & II and III & IV (2 collections of 2 games). Supposedly there's an English mode for some of the text (but not all of it). If you're OK with emulating and have some basic Japanese skill, this might be a great way to experience Wizardry. PC Engine CD is a boss platform.

I'm told these are good and the Wizardry IV release is one of the few modernized ports. BUT one must be careful to choose the option that makes them most similar to the original games because the default is not an "enhanced port" with different designs and mechanics.

[Xeogred]

Nooo... Noooooooo.... NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I didn't like this in Lufia 2, never want to play Pokemon because of this, not sure about SMT Nocturne... I would have a hard time thinking of a JRPG with a big emphasis on "capturing" monsters or whatever that I actually liked doing.

You don't capture monsters in Nocturne. You negotiate with demons to join your team (barter / beg / threaten) or sometimes they ask to join of their own volition. Sometimes they leave your party of their own volition too (disagree with your leadership, or can't get along with other demons in your party). Pokemon's monster capturing system is considerably paltry and simple compared to Nocturne's. Also in Nocturne you can join demons together to form stronger demons, mixing and matching to get the best outcome. I didn't mind the demon collecting at all in Nocturne, but it was not my favorite part of that amazing experience.

Making it sound even worse to me.

I've been trying to think of what my issue is with this gimmick in some JRPG's. I think it's the simple fact that most of these "monsters" end up being nameless playable units that are not characters whatsoever with no pull in the story or arc of their own.

[laurenhiya21]

Recently I finally got a chance to play a bit of Madou Monogatari I for the Game Gear (the game has a lot of versions but this is the only one with a fan-translation)! I didn't get too far partially due to me not understanding how to configure my controller with the emulator and partially due to another issue (which I'll explain in a bit), but so far I'm mostly enjoying it.

To start with, Madou Monogatari I is a very, very simplified dungeon crawler. You only control one character and you don't have any stat points to allocate or equipment to use. The dungeon floors are also pretty small (at least so far), which makes travelling through it pretty quick. There are also hardly any numbers displayed in the game. No HP, no MP, and no EXP! Instead, the main character will say something based on how close to death she is, and little orbs around the screen will fill up as you get closer to levelling up. The only number there really is in the game (at least so far) is how much money you have.

While I wish it was a little more clear on how much HP the main character had left, I still really appreciate how simple the game is as I have hardly any dungeon crawler experience. Really you probably can't get much simpler than this!

Another thing about this game (which surprised me a bit) is that it has a lot of voiced lines. Whenever the enemy or the main character do an attack or get hit, they'll say something. While I can't understand much Japanese, the voices seemed to be pretty clear and I didn't realize that the Game Gear could do something like that. The music in the game is also pretty catchy too.

The only thing that has bothered me so far (and the other reason I haven't progressed very far in the game), is the save system. Now I normally use save states instead of the in-game saves when emulating, but for some reason I decided to use the in-game saves instead. Turns out that was a big mistake because the save system is really wonky and doesn't make sense to me. While playing, I did one save right before the first boss (which was thankfully easy) and then another save afterwards on the second floor. I accidentally ran into a tough enemy that killed me and I was forced to reload. I wasn't worried too much since I had saved recently on that floor, but when I reloaded I instead was back on the first floor right before the first boss. When I tried to fight the first boss again, I couldn't beat it. Since there isn't any indicator on what level the main character is, it's hard to say for sure, but I think she lost levels after she died. So not only did I lose the progress I made on the second floor, but I also have to do some more grinding to get back the levels I lost Not sure if this is part of some Game Gear limitation or the game is just being mean, but I'm definitely doing to be sticking to save states from now on.

Even with that super annoying save thing, I'm still planning on playing some more. I just hope I don't run into any more really weird, annoying issues ha.

[Exhuminator]

it's the simple fact that most of these "monsters" end up being nameless playable units that are not characters whatsoever

In most monster capture games I bet that's true. But the demons in Nocturne do have names, do have distinct personalities, and do have conversations with the player*, but they are not as well developed as actual permanent party members. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I still hope you give Nocturne a try someday. I think you would really enjoy its world aesthetic.

*With the exception of really dumb beast demons who can only grunt.

I feel completely hooked on The Dark Spire. I like how the game requires you to really learn SO MUCH about the dungeon, it really makes you take your time and try to understand the system and mechanics.

That description makes me think of Etrian Odyssey. I'm very much enjoying reading your updates on The Dark Spire. I'm quite interested in your overall take once you've completed it. You're making me want to play it.

While I wish it was a little more clear on how much HP the main character had left

The way the game conveys HP also bugged me too, but at least it was a somewhat original idea.

I'm definitely doing to be sticking to save states from now on.

If you do lose levels when you die, I don't blame you. Forcing the player to grind for previously existing levels if they die, is just artificial longevity at its worst.

Sounds like you're mostly having fun with it though, I'm glad you found a way to participate in this TR!

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Well I'm finally back home from my Atlanta business trip. Very glad to be so, as I hate driving around Atlanta (don't know the back roads like Ack does). I'm very tired, but I'm going to try and squeeze some FF:TWoFM in before bed.

[MrPopo]

The Dark Spire is legitimately Wizardry I with trading in two party members to avoid perma death. So it's definitely in the very hardcore end of the spectrum. Honestly, I'd say EO is easier if you look up decent party synergy ahead of time. If you don't and do something working at cross purposes then EO will be harder. But on average, Dark Spire is overall harder.