Classic games economics and ethics

[Segata]

If you can't answer the question then it seems you want to avoid it. So double standards? Those 5-1 ones or 52-1 one were just as illegal.

[Sarge]

Yes, pirate carts are illegal, including the ones that had multiple commercial games on there. Doesn't matter if people collect them or not. It's just like right now, that apparently some folks want to collect repros of older games. Doesn't make it any less bad.

Unlicensed games are a whole different ball of wax. Nintendo charged a licensing fee to basically give the ability to bypass their lockout chip. It was a profit-motivated move. But circumventing the chip through reverse-engineering the chip and designing a workaround was perfectly legal and acceptable, and had Nintendo challenged it, they would have lost in court.

Now, the reason Tengen was in the wrong is that they literally stole the code for the lockout chip in order to design their workaround, and that was highly, highly illegal.

But really, one could collect anything. I mean, I could collect burned CD-ROMs, bootleg arcade machines, reproduction baseball cards, the works, but the fact that it is collected by people has no impact on their legality (or illegality).

[Gunstar Green]

If you can't answer the question then it seems you want to avoid it. So double standards? Those 5-1 ones or 52-1 one were just as illegal.

Reproductions of games that can be passed off as the real deal cause problems in the collectors market. The spread of counterfeits is a big reason why people are against that kind of thing. Multi-carts don't, but yes they're just as illegal.

You're also wrong about Cheetahmen II and games like it. Unlicensed does not equal illegal. The only reason why Tengen got into trouble was because of how they used Nintendo's patent to copy the 10NES chip. It was already settled way back in the days of the 2600 with Activision that as long as you weren't using patented technology to do it there's nothing illegal about making unsupported software for someone else's hardware.

[dunpeal2064]

I think reproductions and flash carts are equally fine. The only thing that slightly bothers me is when the repro is not immediately distinguishable from an original, but in the case of an expensive game, you should be looking at the boards anyways. A repro that is clearly labeled as such is perfectly acceptable though.

Finished up All Stars completion. SMB3 was a blast. It does highlight one thing I appreciate about Nintendo's approach to the "New" games: Less is better when you can do more with it. SMB3 has so much cool stuff in it, and I love it for that, but it almost has too much, and most of it feels very under-utilized.

Started DKC2 with a buddy of mine. We were only able to get around 1/3rd of it done before he had to head back north, but hopefully we can finish it up next week. I can already say, though, that as someone who grew up with 1 and never played much of 2, the latter feels like it is clearly the superior game.

Other than that, I have SMW, LttP, Star Fox, and Act Raiser left to run through.

[Betagam7]

Yes, pirate carts are illegal, including the ones that had multiple commercial games on there. Doesn't matter if people collect them or not. It's just like right now, that apparently some folks want to collect repros of older games. Doesn't make it any less bad.

I don't think that anybody WANTS to collect reproduction cartridges (unless as stated it's for games that didn't get a physical release like a fan translation or an unreleased rom). Surely we all want to go back to a situation like the one that existed 10 years ago where we could still buy and play original cartridges at a reasonable price and before retrogaming was ruined forever by hoarders and scalpers.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately depending on your viewpoint), now that retrogaming HAS been ruined in such a way, a market still exists for people who want nice looking cartridges that feel "real" when they plug them in and save in the usual way.

The Chinese bootleggers may have filled that market with their high quality low cost reproductions but they are merely parasites living off retrogaming's dead flesh and the people who buy their wares simply starving junkies. They aren't the source of the plague that killed the hobby.

[marurun]

I don't think that anybody WANTS to collect reproduction cartridges (unless as stated it's for games that didn't get a physical release like a fan translation or an unreleased rom). Surely we all want to go back to a situation like the one that existed 10 years ago where we could still buy and play original cartridges at a reasonable price and before retrogaming was ruined forever by hoarders and scalpers.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately depending on your viewpoint), now that retrogaming HAS been ruined in such a way, a market still exists for people who want nice looking cartridges that feel "real" when they plug them in and save in the usual way.

I feel like it is disingenuous to blame hoarders and scalpers for high prices. The market is what the market is. Most games are available in some alternative form, either a remake, a digital release in an on-line or virtual console service somewhere, or as a bonus in a newer release. There are very few titles that legitimately have no alternative means for play. And because those alternatives exist, attempts to morally or ethically justify reproductions are misplaced. Wanting to use physical carts in a system instead of downloaded files in an emulated environment doesn't somehow change the calculus.

[Sarge]

Yeah, they're both not legit. One leads to a more authentic experience, sure, but that doesn't make the medium any more legitimate than running ROMs on a computer, or indeed, running them off of a flash cart like I do at times.

[Betagam7]

I feel like it is disingenuous to blame hoarders and scalpers for high prices. The market is what the market is.

The market has been carefully crafted to be the way it is. It isn't a natural curve. Ebay's changing business plan, youtube and the community as a whole have all played their part in engineering it.

Most games are available in some alternative form, either a remake, a digital release in an on-line or virtual console service somewhere, or as a bonus in a newer release. There are very few titles that legitimately have no alternative means for play.

Are we talking SNES games or games in general, because (although I douht either of us have the exact figures to hand or could even find them) I don't think these figures add up. Outside of the big names, most games are simply not available or locked away at prices that make most people feel sad it isn't 2007 anymore.

And because those alternatives exist, attempts to morally or ethically justify reproductions are misplaced. Wanting to use physical carts in a system instead of downloaded files in an emulated environment doesn't somehow change the calculus.

I don't think anyone is attempting to morally or ethically justify them are they? We just want to play games that feel and look like the games we remember, not roms and computer files loaded up on a computer. That might be some people's idea of "the same thing" but an equal number just can't get into it...at all. There's a tactile barrier that can't be overcome.

You seem to be assuming people are trying to justify some great ethical dilemma in opting for fake carts over downloaded ROM files, like they are trying to justify their piracy with a physical release. That's not it at all and I highly doubt it has anything to do with why people are turning to reproduction carts.

Yeah, they're both not legit. One leads to a more authentic experience, sure, but that doesn't make the medium any more legitimate than running ROMs on a computer, or indeed, running them off of a flash cart like I do at times.

No, it instead makes the whole experience a great deal more enjoyable...for some people.

If you don't get it then that's fine. I don't understand the appeal of playing Roms on Zsnes but I can understand how some people might. Not everyone feels the same way but at numerous points I've had the entire SNES library downloaded and emulate-able on PC or Xbox or whatever else. I've always ultimately discarded them.

I have a Super UFO cart. I don't NEED to buy any reproduction. Yet I still have about 10 sitting on my shelf right now. It's the way some people's brains are wired. Nothing to do with moral or ethical reasons.

[Ziggy]

Not really replying to anyone here directly, but I've seen a lot of people talking about bootleg game carts across the Internet recently.

Bootlegs and counterfeits exist for pretty much everything, retro games aren't special. I'm not using that as a way to justify the existence of bootleg retro game carts, but it's just a matter of fact. Some people will be upset that they have to worry about authentication when purchasing games, but this is the case for many collectibles/hobbies. Art, coins, et cetera, and now retro games. Others will be fine purchasing a counterfeit item, knowing that it is counterfeit, being happy with an item that functions for their needs without having to pay the price for the authentic version. I mean, just look at Canal Street, where you can buy a counterfeit anything. People don't have a problem buying bootleg DVDs (look at Disney movies when they're "in the vault"). I don't see how video games are any different than that. Retro games got popular enough that bootleggers took notice, so bootleg retro games exist. Love it or hate it.

Again, I'm not trying to justify anything. For example, I was really worried when purchasing a Hakko FX888D off Amazon. The first thing I did after receiving it was open it up to verify it wasn't a counterfeit. I do the same for any commonly bootlegged game cart I buy. This has long been a thing for GBA carts.

[ElkinFencer10]

The market has been carefully crafted to be the way it is. It isn't a natural curve. Ebay's changing business plan, youtube and the community as a whole have all played their part in engineering it.