Feel like arguing? Come in

[Nanten]

Come on, guys. It's painfully obvious at this point that this is a matter of personal preference. There is no absolutely correct answer as to which is more important, since some people like their games to have stories and others don't. There. End of debate.

[RemyC]

Well maybe there is no winner...

Sure there is.

You said that zelda is just repeat of action, it is true. But why would I want to repeat that action?

Because it's fun and entertaining.

If all I care about game play, why do I just not go through the same level over and over and over again, all I care about is the gameplay right? They should do 1 level games.

They should, if it's a fantastic level...but the marketing people wont let them.

If you go into a snow mountain and suddenly its an avalanche that you have to run from, running from it is gameplay but the the avalanche is part of what is happening in the story.

You can remove any back-story of the avanlanche and still have gameplay. You remove the interactivity, and you have a cut-scene. Cut-scenes aren't good gameplay.

Like if RE was in a cave, or in a grass field, would it be as big as when they made it in the mansion? Plus a lot of people complain about the gameplay "tank controls" they call it.

Sure it would be. You could even put the zombies in pretty dresses...wouldn't take away from the gameplay one bit...they would just look silly.
These would be the same folks that complain about the castlevania controls. They're not broken, you just need to learn how to play it.

Yes I do mean by story more than just the plot, I mean characters, level setting(in a house, in a castle, in galaxy?) tools you have to use(do you use a key to open the dungeon door or do you use the special dark metal key?)

Story is the plot. You can set a game anywhere you want, with any characters you want, but what will it matter if they dont do anything?
Tools you have to use are a gameplay convention.

Come on, guys. It's painfully obvious at this point that this is a matter of personal preference. There is no absolutely correct answer as to which is more important, since some people like their games to have stories and others don't. There. End of debate.

No its not a matter of preference. And their is an absolutely correct answer.
If I REALLY wanted to I could write an academy award winning script, and put it into a game where all you have to do is press a button on a controller to cycle through the dialogue, and once you finish cycling through the dialogue the game is over.
Would you like to play it? theirs an INCREDIBLE turn of events halfway through. The hero get chased by an avalanche.
Bottomline...without gameplay you dont have much of a game. without a story/plot, it is still possible to have an incredible game.

[marurun]

For me the story is not level design. But it is the settings, the characters, what you interact with, and what happens. If you go into a snow mountain and suddenly its an avalanche that you have to run from, running from it is gameplay but the the avalanche is part of what is happening in the story.
...
Yes I do mean by story more than just the plot, I mean characters, level setting(in a house, in a castle, in galaxy?) tools you have to use(do you use a key to open the dungeon door or do you use the special dark metal key?) all that matters...

Yeah, you're construing story to be a lot bigger than I am. I have been specifically limiting my definition of story. Your definition is much more broad. I separate setting and story. I separate characters and story, at least outside of plot-relevant dialogue and the plot-roles the characters play. I would argue that your definition of story is broad enough to venture into gameplay and game design territory, meaning that your definition of story has implications for gameplay, whereas my definition of story is much more isolated and has much less impact, if any, on gameplay and critical game design.

See, for me, gameplay is more than just whether or not RE characters have "tank" controls or move where you move the stick. Gameplay is about the core design principles of the game. How are the levels different? Setting? Tools? Level-specific elements like swinging on vines in the jungle stage or bouncing on beds in the mansion level? Do you get a key card to open a technologically advanced door or an old skeleton key to open the rusty gate? These can be tied to a story, or they can be largely independent of the story. Sometimes a really crappy story can give you really different and exciting levels, but then you get to the end of the game and the ending sucks because the ending is about the crappy story. Sometimes there's a great story that fails to give you much to do in the game because there's so much story there's not much room for game.

Still, I tend to argue for a very limited scope and definition of story, because I think many of the elements you described can exist meaningfully in a game without a complex or "good" story to tie them together.

[RCBH928]

For me , gameplay is the controls. How you controll the game. How fast does it punch, is there a running button, is there a hit button. is it 3d, or 2d. Is it button mashing or not?
that is gameplay, how you play the game.

I think level design is independent from gameplay, because it has nothing to do with how you play, I also think the design itself is not associated with the story but the setting(where it is) is associated with the story.

Again I think it got to personal preference, but for me , I see it that people do play games based on a story. Just think about it. I want to play Bully because of the school atmosphere. I have no idea how the game plays. I bet others were drooling about being an assassin in Assassin Creed or to find what what Bioshock is all about, and these people never played those games before, so how do they now how the gameplay is? Put any game out there with a known story and it will sell. Make a platform with Micky Mouse, it will sell. Don't add Micky Mouse and no one will care. Why do you think people buy those movie based games? They want to get into that story. That is how I see it.
You can make the best wrestling game out there, but if it doesn't have the Understaker, Batista, John Cena, and others...no one will play because mainstream will not go after the gameplay, they want the story.

kingmohd84 wrote:
If all I care about game play, why do I just not go through the same level over and over and over again, all I care about is the gameplay right? They should do 1 level games.

They should, if it's a fantastic level...but the marketing people wont let them.

If that is how you argue, you think games should have one level as long as the gameplay is great, then I think it is very hard to convince you with anything that is different from your opinion.

I said story in a videogame is the most important aspect, I didn't say gameplay does not matter. And for this argument to be true, it has to be a game hence it has to have some sort of gameplay.

I did agree that puzzles shooters do not have a story element and they can be great games, but you did not reply to me what is so great about point and click games? They are great too, with minimum gameplay.

[RemyC]

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[RemyC]

I think level design is independent from gameplay, because it has nothing to do with how you play,

Level design is strongly tied to gameplay. It indirectly affects the way you play, based on the layout in the environment, the physics in the game, and the techniques available to your characters.

I am being extreme to try to make you realize that story is irrelevant to videogames, and have only been added, because people realized that they can cash-in on them.
Sure you can play Assassins creed for the story or to be an assassin, but someone with an understanding of videogames will realize that its Prince of persia watered down, and with sandbox elements.

these people never played those games before, so how do they now how the gameplay is?

I am pretty sure I've answered this for you earlier, but: You need to educate yourself on the game, before you commit to buying it. Don't be foolish and waste $50+ on a game, because it looks pretty. Know that you will like what you're playing by reading a GOOD review (Bad reviews are reviews that spend more than a few sentences talking about the story).

Put any game out there with a known story and it will sell

I'm sure it would too. There are alot of silly people that believe that story's make up for poor gameplay. Some even only play for the story...not too sure why they don't just pop on a movie. Games that are made from movies are always clones of some game that is really hot on the market currently...normally a very bad clone.

You can make the best wrestling game out there, but if it doesn't have the Understaker, Batista, John Cena, and others...no one will play because mainstream will not go after the gameplay, they want the story.

The few times that I have played wrestling games were with my friends, and we had far more fun with the custom character design. I stopped caring for wrestling after Stone Cold Steve Austin, and Mankind left. So, the story to me didn't matter one little bit. I just wanted to be able to kick the crap out of my friends in a competent manner. The game played well...so I was happy.
Im sure their are die-hard wrestling fans that want to control their hero's...but if its a joke of a game, I'm pretty sure that they would feel insulted, and never play it again.
Game without a doubt will sell if the marketing is proper, and it sounds like it has a fascinating story, or a familiar face. Not everyone understands that the story in no way impacts the quality of a videogame. The story is an illusion.

I said story in a videogame is the most important aspect, I didn't say gameplay does not matter. And for this argument to be true, it has to be a game hence it has to have some sort of gameplay.

Thats my point. So what do all these characters, and settings, and events matter...if you cant enjoy them interactively while playing the game?
All the cut backs that you can make with story's in videogames prove that Gameplay is far more important, in ANY genre.

[crux]

I don't even see where there's room for debate. The seems like a pretty obvious subjective topic. Arguments should be reserved for disagreements with objective issues.

Of course, I would say that the narrative of video games is too terrible for me to take seriously, especially in contrast with the upper echelon of novels or the quality, cinematography, acting and direction of film. There are enough great books to read that I could never get through them all - why look for that in a game, where the impetus is inherently (no argument to be made here, folks) gameplay.

Should games ever reach that point, I'll welcome them with open arms. What's better than a medium that mixes the best of other mediums with interactivity? Until then, keep the gameplay pure and insert the narrative once that's taken care of.

I'm not catering to the other arguments here, though I will say I'm not sure how ANYONE could possibly argue that gameplay isn't intrinsically tied to level design. What the hell is the definition of level design that would imply otherwise?

[Erik_Twice]

Most videogames plost suck. Most RPG plots suck.

Seriously, most good games have pretty bland storylines. There are a lot of good games and only a fistful of them have a good story.

So this proves that a game can be good and have a bad plot.

[marurun]

I'm not in this to win an argument. I just want to look for definitions and explanations, at this point. I do like understanding why people disagree with me when they do.

[RemyC]

Most videogames plost suck. Most RPG plots suck.

Seriously, most good games have pretty bland storylines. There are a lot of good games and only a fistful of them have a good story.

So this proves that a game can be good and have a bad plot.

Its not a matter of the quality of the story. Its the usefulness. You could have Oliver Stone and Tarantino coming together with some intense story for a videogame and it wouldn't make it a good game. Sure it would make a great story, with lots for you to do. However, if you were to remove the story, but keep all the gameplay together, you would still have the same game.
You would still be fighting the same enemies, you would still have all your moves, you would still be rescuing whatever hostages, and driving whatever getaway cars.