Wolfpac Sting is the single worst thing that ever happened to Sting. Seriously. Fuck the Wolfpac and stupid nWo split all together.
And I'm the same with DDP to be fair. I freaking loved him has a kid, still do, but in retrospect it's difficult to find many outstanding matches featuring him. He is sloppy and rough, but his feud with Savage was awesome as you mentioned. I still have a lot of respect for the guy and have a lot of nostalgia for his WCW stint, but yeah...
I'm actually kinda the same with Sting to be fair, who was my favourite WCW wrestler (Flair and DDP weren't far behind). He's still a legend, but again in retrospect, he was never that amazing. He oozed charisma during his feuds with Flair, but yeah, overall, he hasn't had that many amazing matches... His Crow gimmick was always awesome to me and so I disagree with you on that aspect of him, but I would concede he didn't have many great matches or angles during this period. He peaked as 'surfer' Sting and went downhill from there.
The Wrestling Thread
Re: The Wrestling Thread
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Re: The Wrestling Thread
I guess nobody remembers blade runner sting, or I'm just too old lol.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
Yeah don't get me wrong on DDP, Reprise. I've been doing DDP Yoga for years now. Love the dude. I just think he has a hilariously goofy look and hairstyle, I hate wrestlers in this era going out in jeans, and he's so sloppy haha. But he's a great dude and saves lives.
One guy I am coming to peace with and can't help but give some cred by this point, in my attitude era rewatch is... dare I say it... Raven. I absolutely can't stand him, but he is a great worker in the ring and there's been a lot of great matches with him. The Halloween Havoc PPV opened with him and Jericho, and it was a freaking amazing match. Raven can get some real heat but he does a great job getting people over. It's been cool that flock has been free, with Kidman and Saturn doing great now too.
How about some Jericho talk? It's amusing I only caught some of his Y2J stuff and around the invasion angle, before I stopped watching. But he's always been one of my favorites. My friends keep me updated on his current angles. And now that I'm rewatching this stuff point for point... Jericho was an absolute genius in WCW. He freaking got Dean Malenko OVER big time when Dean was OUT and injured, who else can do that? He builds up Goldberg more. Now he's got that fat guy bodyguard and I think the backstory to that is he's some random trucker, haha. Jericho is such a good, hilariously, whiney crybaby heel here and I love how similar him and Eddie were as heels. You could tell they were buds.
I totally forgot about Stevie Ray going to the NWO. His singles push has been pretty terrible. Harlem Heat was amazing, but Booker took off easily and is one of my top favorites.
I kind of see Dean, Eddie, Jericho, Booker, and Benoit as the toughest and best core of the mid card for WCW. Benoit reminds me of Shawn Micheals in ways I can't explain... although he looks 10x more intense, but I just love how versatile he is and his looks. Never quite the best on the mic, but The Crippler has always been one of my favorites. The Best of 7 with Booker in 1998 was incredible stuff.
I wrapped up Halloween Havoc and honestly, it was pretty solid I thought. Even Warrior vs Hogan was okay to me... got some boring chants haha. Hogan fumbles the dangerous fireball. But I still think Goldberg vs DDP kept the steam rolling... granted, I don't think that match aired on PPV at the time so that's why this PPV must have a bad legacy, going out on the Warrior and Hogan match.
Of all the WWE Network edits, the biggest fuckup and disappointment to me is how they don't have Voodoo Child for Hollywood Hogan. That was such an iconic and awesome theme for him. They just play the NWO theme over it, which I'm already hearing 10 times a Nitro so that gets old. They've also replaced Jericho's Pearl Jam-esque theme with his Y2J song and those edits always sound terrible. Real shame on some of these edits.
One guy I am coming to peace with and can't help but give some cred by this point, in my attitude era rewatch is... dare I say it... Raven. I absolutely can't stand him, but he is a great worker in the ring and there's been a lot of great matches with him. The Halloween Havoc PPV opened with him and Jericho, and it was a freaking amazing match. Raven can get some real heat but he does a great job getting people over. It's been cool that flock has been free, with Kidman and Saturn doing great now too.
How about some Jericho talk? It's amusing I only caught some of his Y2J stuff and around the invasion angle, before I stopped watching. But he's always been one of my favorites. My friends keep me updated on his current angles. And now that I'm rewatching this stuff point for point... Jericho was an absolute genius in WCW. He freaking got Dean Malenko OVER big time when Dean was OUT and injured, who else can do that? He builds up Goldberg more. Now he's got that fat guy bodyguard and I think the backstory to that is he's some random trucker, haha. Jericho is such a good, hilariously, whiney crybaby heel here and I love how similar him and Eddie were as heels. You could tell they were buds.
I totally forgot about Stevie Ray going to the NWO. His singles push has been pretty terrible. Harlem Heat was amazing, but Booker took off easily and is one of my top favorites.
I kind of see Dean, Eddie, Jericho, Booker, and Benoit as the toughest and best core of the mid card for WCW. Benoit reminds me of Shawn Micheals in ways I can't explain... although he looks 10x more intense, but I just love how versatile he is and his looks. Never quite the best on the mic, but The Crippler has always been one of my favorites. The Best of 7 with Booker in 1998 was incredible stuff.
I wrapped up Halloween Havoc and honestly, it was pretty solid I thought. Even Warrior vs Hogan was okay to me... got some boring chants haha. Hogan fumbles the dangerous fireball. But I still think Goldberg vs DDP kept the steam rolling... granted, I don't think that match aired on PPV at the time so that's why this PPV must have a bad legacy, going out on the Warrior and Hogan match.
Of all the WWE Network edits, the biggest fuckup and disappointment to me is how they don't have Voodoo Child for Hollywood Hogan. That was such an iconic and awesome theme for him. They just play the NWO theme over it, which I'm already hearing 10 times a Nitro so that gets old. They've also replaced Jericho's Pearl Jam-esque theme with his Y2J song and those edits always sound terrible. Real shame on some of these edits.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
Yeah, I'm the same with DDP. The guy is legitimately a great guy and DDP Yoga is great, but I agree regarding his sloppiness and goofy look.
I think it's awesome you're rewatching all this late 90s wrestling, man. Especially as I did the exact same thing years ago. I did it before the Network was such a thing and man, it was a huge drag tracking down torrents and old links, but I managed it and actually watched every single episode of Raw and Smackdown, and every WWF PPV, from 1998 up until early 2002. I couldn't track down all the WCW stuff though, but did watch the majority of the 1996 Nitros and a few of the PPVs.
1998 was pretty bad for the WWF, as you mentioned (I think 1997 perhaps even worse, to be fair), 1999 got fully into the Attitude Era, which made for some really entertaining viewing, although the wrestling quality and mid card was still a bit weak until guys like Jericho started coming in. It also suffered and benefited from that classic Russo style booking and writing. The year 2000 is when WWF really reached its peak levels of awesomeness (at least if we're talking about the 1998-2002ish period). I'd also say 2001 from January - March/April was even better, but they really dropped the ball after that with the weird Stone Cold heel turn and Invasion angle.
In terms of the Invasion 2001 angle by the way, it really did suck, because it was so convoluted and ridiculous. It started off decent and intriguing, but got ridiculous and as soon as it became obvious that most of the big stars from WCW wouldn't be there and that this was just another Vince ego thing to trash WCW, it quickly became dull. BUT, the big saving grace was the match quality and PPV quality. There was some fantastic matches around that period and I would say forget the storylines and just enjoy the ride. The PPVs from SummerSlam to the end of the year were gold.
The main problem with the Invasion angle was that it wasn't really a WCW or ECW invasion at all. It wasn't a cross promotion, dream event. It was just masquerading itself as that. In fact, all it was, was another McMahon family feud and another Austin vs. McMahon feud, but with the roles reversed (Vince being the face and Austin being the heel). Oh and Stephanie McMahon owned ECW despite Paul Heyman being in WWE and DDP had to do the job to Undertaker's wife, because, well why the hell not?
Jericho was always one of my favourite wrestlers. I agree he was a genius in WCW, particularly in getting Malenko over. He was great in WWE too.
Speaking of WCW, their mid card was ridiculously strong and they generally put on amazing matches. WWF was concentrating on their top stars, creating characters and transforming the types of storylines seen in wrestling, but when it comes to watching amazing wrestling matches, I'd say WCW had them beat between 1996-1998. Maybe even 1999. It's difficult, because WCW was getting really crap and nonsensical, but they really did produce some solid matches.
I think it's awesome you're rewatching all this late 90s wrestling, man. Especially as I did the exact same thing years ago. I did it before the Network was such a thing and man, it was a huge drag tracking down torrents and old links, but I managed it and actually watched every single episode of Raw and Smackdown, and every WWF PPV, from 1998 up until early 2002. I couldn't track down all the WCW stuff though, but did watch the majority of the 1996 Nitros and a few of the PPVs.
1998 was pretty bad for the WWF, as you mentioned (I think 1997 perhaps even worse, to be fair), 1999 got fully into the Attitude Era, which made for some really entertaining viewing, although the wrestling quality and mid card was still a bit weak until guys like Jericho started coming in. It also suffered and benefited from that classic Russo style booking and writing. The year 2000 is when WWF really reached its peak levels of awesomeness (at least if we're talking about the 1998-2002ish period). I'd also say 2001 from January - March/April was even better, but they really dropped the ball after that with the weird Stone Cold heel turn and Invasion angle.
In terms of the Invasion 2001 angle by the way, it really did suck, because it was so convoluted and ridiculous. It started off decent and intriguing, but got ridiculous and as soon as it became obvious that most of the big stars from WCW wouldn't be there and that this was just another Vince ego thing to trash WCW, it quickly became dull. BUT, the big saving grace was the match quality and PPV quality. There was some fantastic matches around that period and I would say forget the storylines and just enjoy the ride. The PPVs from SummerSlam to the end of the year were gold.
The main problem with the Invasion angle was that it wasn't really a WCW or ECW invasion at all. It wasn't a cross promotion, dream event. It was just masquerading itself as that. In fact, all it was, was another McMahon family feud and another Austin vs. McMahon feud, but with the roles reversed (Vince being the face and Austin being the heel). Oh and Stephanie McMahon owned ECW despite Paul Heyman being in WWE and DDP had to do the job to Undertaker's wife, because, well why the hell not?
Jericho was always one of my favourite wrestlers. I agree he was a genius in WCW, particularly in getting Malenko over. He was great in WWE too.
Speaking of WCW, their mid card was ridiculously strong and they generally put on amazing matches. WWF was concentrating on their top stars, creating characters and transforming the types of storylines seen in wrestling, but when it comes to watching amazing wrestling matches, I'd say WCW had them beat between 1996-1998. Maybe even 1999. It's difficult, because WCW was getting really crap and nonsensical, but they really did produce some solid matches.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread
That explains why you're good at keeping up with my details here, sounds like the attitude era is fresh in your mind too from your own rewatch.
I actually spoke of 1997 WWF positively though... but when I look through my notes (copying pasting each episode in a notepad, then might write a note or two), I finalized my thoughts on WWF having the best main events in 1997, but WCW's midcard was an absolute monster here. This is also when their tag division was incredible and before Jobber Thunder started. I should note on that, I don't think the Network has Thunder and I don't even give a damn lmao, even as a kid... I eventually lost interest in Thunder because it was so throwaway. Unlike Smackdown which was pretty good and completely killed it. Now that I'm nearing the end of 1998 WCW, it's seriously felt like I missed nothing and they recap the main stuff anyways. So yeah, nothing of value is lost skipping Thunder.
Back on 1997 though, it might just be my fanboyism for Bret and Shawn. But that legit rivalry was something else and heel Austin before his neck complications was really awesome to watch. Undertaker was great here too. But it had some weird stuff, like Sid Vicious being world champ for a second and him at the top... he's not bad and has a way better powerbomb than Nash, but world champ guy? Not sure about that.
1998 is a tough call for WCW. I think it's been a huge drop off in terms of match quality after 1996-1997. By this point, the NWO thing in addition to the Wolfpac, is pretty outplayed. Thunder split the roster and does some damage to Nitro, and they've got a lot of talky Russo-like segments now. But... I think I could put 1998 WCW over 1998 WWF, which was pretty damn bad outside of the Austin vs McMahon stuff, Kane's debut, and some fun face DX stuff. It's a lot easier to burn through WWF though... about 90 minutes when they went to 2 hours, but WCW even without the breaks and their damn 3 hour run is like 120 minutes haha, so I'm a bit burned out. But I'm in November now and will finish it soon. I left off in March 1999 for the WWF and was already digging it a little more than 1998.
You're basically echoing a lot of thoughts one of my friends deeper into wrestling says along with another friend... So that's yet another positive vote for 2000. Sounds like by then the WWF finally has a really good roster again and with Russo out, things might be a bit better. I'm paying close attention to when Russo leaves, then when Bischoff gets pushed aside in WCW and Russo comes in there too. It'll be interesting to see the changes.
I do plan to watch Smackdown though, but that will be a lot more on my plate. The Network now has all of Nitro which ended in 2001... so I kind of want to see it through to the end, but it could be really really painful and depressing haha. I was a huge WCW fan and am still to this day kind of sour on its demise. Like you said, it was too obvious McMahon had an agenda with the Invasion angle, along with making a bit of a mockery with the NWO (or maybe they did themselves, since Hall was a mess by that point and Nash was kind of whatever). It could have been so much cooler. I've heard talk that Shane wanted to keep the WCW as a separate brand... man, sometimes you have to wonder how things would have been if Vince let his grip go a little sometimes.
When I look at the 2001 WCW PPV thumbnails on the network it's like all Scott Steiner. Phew... wish me luck man. I recall Hogan doing his yellow/red thing again later on, Goldberg still being Goldberg, the silver NWO era with Bret, Scott Steiner, and Jeff Jarrett being horrible and super weird. But it feels like unfinished business and I need to watch all of it for historical sake. lol
So yeah, back in the day I was more a WCW kid and I even loved the finger poke of doom (not so much anymore haha, but I liked the heels more as a kid and hated the Wolfpac! I still dislike the Wolfpac, but the finger poke was just a horrible angle), but that really does signal the downfall. That and when Nitro does the brand look rehaul and the set looks like garbage, I hated the weird look there as do most people from the sounds of it. So it was probably somewhere mid to late 1999 and 2000 for sure when I accepted defeat and the WWF was 10x better. But then the Invasion angle happened (2002-2003?) and it's a huge blur, I kind of grew out of wrestling at the time and stopped.
I don't know if I'll bother watching much of the Cena era. But I like keeping up with some of the recent PPV's, with last years WM and the Royal Rumble this year. I might just try to go through Jericho's stuff, check out Shawn Michaels stuff (I've seen his epic Undertaker matches), and pick and choose some stuff like that.
But after I finish the attitude era, I'm excited to dive further back and watch more of the older stuff. I checked out the Network last year for the hell of it and had no idea that watching old wrestling was this addicting and fun, I love ending the day on a Raw or Nitro just like the old days haha. Even if I don't see myself watching the new stuff again regularly, I guess wrestling is something that can really stick with you for life. It's basically like watching an action drama with insane characters.
Sorry for the essay.
I actually spoke of 1997 WWF positively though... but when I look through my notes (copying pasting each episode in a notepad, then might write a note or two), I finalized my thoughts on WWF having the best main events in 1997, but WCW's midcard was an absolute monster here. This is also when their tag division was incredible and before Jobber Thunder started. I should note on that, I don't think the Network has Thunder and I don't even give a damn lmao, even as a kid... I eventually lost interest in Thunder because it was so throwaway. Unlike Smackdown which was pretty good and completely killed it. Now that I'm nearing the end of 1998 WCW, it's seriously felt like I missed nothing and they recap the main stuff anyways. So yeah, nothing of value is lost skipping Thunder.
Back on 1997 though, it might just be my fanboyism for Bret and Shawn. But that legit rivalry was something else and heel Austin before his neck complications was really awesome to watch. Undertaker was great here too. But it had some weird stuff, like Sid Vicious being world champ for a second and him at the top... he's not bad and has a way better powerbomb than Nash, but world champ guy? Not sure about that.
1998 is a tough call for WCW. I think it's been a huge drop off in terms of match quality after 1996-1997. By this point, the NWO thing in addition to the Wolfpac, is pretty outplayed. Thunder split the roster and does some damage to Nitro, and they've got a lot of talky Russo-like segments now. But... I think I could put 1998 WCW over 1998 WWF, which was pretty damn bad outside of the Austin vs McMahon stuff, Kane's debut, and some fun face DX stuff. It's a lot easier to burn through WWF though... about 90 minutes when they went to 2 hours, but WCW even without the breaks and their damn 3 hour run is like 120 minutes haha, so I'm a bit burned out. But I'm in November now and will finish it soon. I left off in March 1999 for the WWF and was already digging it a little more than 1998.
You're basically echoing a lot of thoughts one of my friends deeper into wrestling says along with another friend... So that's yet another positive vote for 2000. Sounds like by then the WWF finally has a really good roster again and with Russo out, things might be a bit better. I'm paying close attention to when Russo leaves, then when Bischoff gets pushed aside in WCW and Russo comes in there too. It'll be interesting to see the changes.
I do plan to watch Smackdown though, but that will be a lot more on my plate. The Network now has all of Nitro which ended in 2001... so I kind of want to see it through to the end, but it could be really really painful and depressing haha. I was a huge WCW fan and am still to this day kind of sour on its demise. Like you said, it was too obvious McMahon had an agenda with the Invasion angle, along with making a bit of a mockery with the NWO (or maybe they did themselves, since Hall was a mess by that point and Nash was kind of whatever). It could have been so much cooler. I've heard talk that Shane wanted to keep the WCW as a separate brand... man, sometimes you have to wonder how things would have been if Vince let his grip go a little sometimes.
When I look at the 2001 WCW PPV thumbnails on the network it's like all Scott Steiner. Phew... wish me luck man. I recall Hogan doing his yellow/red thing again later on, Goldberg still being Goldberg, the silver NWO era with Bret, Scott Steiner, and Jeff Jarrett being horrible and super weird. But it feels like unfinished business and I need to watch all of it for historical sake. lol
So yeah, back in the day I was more a WCW kid and I even loved the finger poke of doom (not so much anymore haha, but I liked the heels more as a kid and hated the Wolfpac! I still dislike the Wolfpac, but the finger poke was just a horrible angle), but that really does signal the downfall. That and when Nitro does the brand look rehaul and the set looks like garbage, I hated the weird look there as do most people from the sounds of it. So it was probably somewhere mid to late 1999 and 2000 for sure when I accepted defeat and the WWF was 10x better. But then the Invasion angle happened (2002-2003?) and it's a huge blur, I kind of grew out of wrestling at the time and stopped.
I don't know if I'll bother watching much of the Cena era. But I like keeping up with some of the recent PPV's, with last years WM and the Royal Rumble this year. I might just try to go through Jericho's stuff, check out Shawn Michaels stuff (I've seen his epic Undertaker matches), and pick and choose some stuff like that.
But after I finish the attitude era, I'm excited to dive further back and watch more of the older stuff. I checked out the Network last year for the hell of it and had no idea that watching old wrestling was this addicting and fun, I love ending the day on a Raw or Nitro just like the old days haha. Even if I don't see myself watching the new stuff again regularly, I guess wrestling is something that can really stick with you for life. It's basically like watching an action drama with insane characters.
Sorry for the essay.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
You can stop watching wrestling for a while, but if you were ever a fan of it at any point, it never fully leaves you.
Hell, I'm more excited about wrestling now than I have been in years. There's just so much to choose from these days. And even if any of the modern stuff doesn't do it for you, there are so many avenues to access tons of wrestling history at the touch of a button.
It's a great time to be a wrestling fan.
Hell, I'm more excited about wrestling now than I have been in years. There's just so much to choose from these days. And even if any of the modern stuff doesn't do it for you, there are so many avenues to access tons of wrestling history at the touch of a button.
It's a great time to be a wrestling fan.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
Ditto. The Network price is absolute theft. It's such a gold mine. 
I love hearing the stories from veterans or wrestlers in other promotions on Austin/Jericho's podcasts whom I might not even know. In comparison, when Jericho and other mainstream outlets interview musicians, man... talk about an instant coma. It's like the same damn story everytime and so boring, lmao. It's not like I hate music or the bands Jericho interviews either, but there's just something 10x cooler and more fascinating hearing about really old wrestling stories and people instead.
PS: I bet Chae An is still super hot.
I love hearing the stories from veterans or wrestlers in other promotions on Austin/Jericho's podcasts whom I might not even know. In comparison, when Jericho and other mainstream outlets interview musicians, man... talk about an instant coma. It's like the same damn story everytime and so boring, lmao. It's not like I hate music or the bands Jericho interviews either, but there's just something 10x cooler and more fascinating hearing about really old wrestling stories and people instead.
PS: I bet Chae An is still super hot.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
If you like behind-the-scenes stuff, check out Bruce Prichard's podcast: https://audioboom.com/channel/something ... e-prichard
Also speaking of older things, I just finished Gary Hart's book, My Life In Wrestling, the other day. Might be the best wrestling book I've ever read. Shit's out of print right now, but there are PDFs out there (he's dead, so he ain't making no money off it). Highly, highly recommended.
PS: I wouldn't doubt it.
Also speaking of older things, I just finished Gary Hart's book, My Life In Wrestling, the other day. Might be the best wrestling book I've ever read. Shit's out of print right now, but there are PDFs out there (he's dead, so he ain't making no money off it). Highly, highly recommended.
PS: I wouldn't doubt it.
Re: The Wrestling Thread
Damn, so much stuff to comment on and discuss
Yeah, I'm a huge wrestling fan. Regarding my own rewatch, I was a huge fan of WCW and WWF during the monday night wars, particularly the WWF (man, I remember the rivalry between my best buddy and I back then haha. He was a WCW kid, I was a WWF kid. We both enjoyed both organisations, but we each had our favourite and loved arguing over which was best), so I really wanted to rewatch everything. I must admit though, I skipped over a lot of stuff. Don't get me wrong, I did watch every episode of Raw and Smackdown and every PPV, but I skipped through segments and matches I didn't care about at times.
I mostly enjoy watching DVDs and Blu-Rays these days. I used to watch the modern product up until last year, but haven't kept up recently (I did catch the Royal Rumble last month though).
I actually have a huge wrestling DVD collection now, which is something else I collect besides video games. I know, with the Network it's a bit redundant these days, but I started before that became a thing. I still collect them now regardless of the Network. I have every single 2000 and 2001 WWF PPV on DVD (as well as most of 1999), every WrestleMania from WM7 up until WM22, every Royal Rumble from 1998 till 2007. I have plenty of PPVs from other periods too (early 90s, as well as 2000s and modern shows from the last few years), including a lot of the In Your House shows, as well as a few ECW PPV sets. I have quite documentaries and compilation sets too. The WCW Very best of Nitro volumes are brilliant, I must say. I highly recommend the 'The Bret Hart Story: The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be' DVD set too, which has a great documentary and great matches like his match against Benoit on Nitro as a tribute to Owen.
But I digress.
Regarding WWF in 1997: Yeah I was probably a bit harsh when I said 1997 was bad. As I mentioned earlier, I rewatched from 1998 onwards, so 1997 isn't really fresh in my mind. You make good points about Austin rising up the card, pre neck injury, before he became a brawler, and Hart and Michaels rivalry. I guess my memory was tainted by the whole WM13 fiasco (although it did give us one of the greatest matches of all time in Austin vs. Hart), with Michaels 'faking' an injury because he didn't want to put Bret over in a rematch at Mania and that giving us Sycho fucking Sid main eventing and having the title. But yeah, Austin, Bret and Shawn were all awesome that year, with exception of the things I mentioned.
WCW was pretty painful between 2000 and 2001 from what I can gather. Sorry to the fans of these two guys (haha if there's any of the latter), but seeing Jeff Jarrett and Scott Steiner being pushed as the main eventers was just... ugh. It's kinda compelling viewing though thanks to WCW unpredictable ridiculousness, but still. I loved watching some of it... mostly in short bursts and a lot of it via Vol 1 and Vol 2 of 'The Very Best of Nitro' DVD sets.
WWF in 2000 was awesome as we touched on. Benoit and Jericho started getting their main event pushes, which I loved seeing and Angle quickly rose up the ranks.
The Invasion happened in 2001 and ended in 2001. It was actually cut short, as the original plan was to have it dragged out until Wrestlemania 18 in 2002. I believe they ended it, because there was a pretty big backlash from fans and the media wasn't being positive about the angle.
As you mentioned correctly though, Shane did indeed want WCW to be its own separate brand and that was actually the original plan.
The first Invasion angle when it first began portrayed the WCW guys and shane McMahon (kayfabe owner) as faces, rising up against the "villainous" Mr. McMahon. So WCW stars were only booked to take out heel WWF stars and act as faces, with exception of a few heel characters like DDP and Buff Bagwell (he was released after his first match though haha). This was done in order to promote WCW as a separate brand.
Apparently, the first plan was to bring WCW Nitro back on the air (I'd imagine not as direct competition to Raw though, because that would be dumb), but this fell through when no television company would touch the WCW brand with a bargepole.
The second idea was to then have WCW "take over" Smackdown and thus have a brand extension like they eventually did have, with Smackdown being the WCW show and Raw maintained as WWF. However, this idea changed after WWF fans booed the hell out of the WCW guys, particularly one Raw episode where Booker T and Buff Bagwell headlined the show in a WCW championship match. Fans booed the hell out of it and hated it. They only cheered when the 'heel' Austin and Angle came out to bury the WCW stars, beating seven shades of shit out of them. Ugh. After the reaction, Vince decided WCW couldn't be saved, so they changed angles and turned it into an Invasion thing, with WCW being heels.
Most people view the "WCW headlining Raw" act as being an act of self-sabotage though, with Vince intentionally screwing the opportunity to promote WCW as a separate brand, due to a number of reasons.
1. That episode of Raw was held in a popular WWF territory, with a crowd that of course would be hostile, when the following week Raw was going to be held in Atlanta Georgia. Why not wait a week?
2. Buff Bagwell in a heavyweight championship match? Seriously? Why not have DDP or Lance Storm?
3. Why have it in the main event when WWF fans paid to see WWF stars in the main event?
So yeah, they ended up going with the Invasion angle instead, which is pretty sad in retrospect. I wish they'd held out for a bit longer, got the bigger contracts and done it properly, but alas, it wasn't to be.
Yeah, I'm a huge wrestling fan. Regarding my own rewatch, I was a huge fan of WCW and WWF during the monday night wars, particularly the WWF (man, I remember the rivalry between my best buddy and I back then haha. He was a WCW kid, I was a WWF kid. We both enjoyed both organisations, but we each had our favourite and loved arguing over which was best), so I really wanted to rewatch everything. I must admit though, I skipped over a lot of stuff. Don't get me wrong, I did watch every episode of Raw and Smackdown and every PPV, but I skipped through segments and matches I didn't care about at times.
I mostly enjoy watching DVDs and Blu-Rays these days. I used to watch the modern product up until last year, but haven't kept up recently (I did catch the Royal Rumble last month though).
I actually have a huge wrestling DVD collection now, which is something else I collect besides video games. I know, with the Network it's a bit redundant these days, but I started before that became a thing. I still collect them now regardless of the Network. I have every single 2000 and 2001 WWF PPV on DVD (as well as most of 1999), every WrestleMania from WM7 up until WM22, every Royal Rumble from 1998 till 2007. I have plenty of PPVs from other periods too (early 90s, as well as 2000s and modern shows from the last few years), including a lot of the In Your House shows, as well as a few ECW PPV sets. I have quite documentaries and compilation sets too. The WCW Very best of Nitro volumes are brilliant, I must say. I highly recommend the 'The Bret Hart Story: The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be' DVD set too, which has a great documentary and great matches like his match against Benoit on Nitro as a tribute to Owen.
But I digress.
Regarding WWF in 1997: Yeah I was probably a bit harsh when I said 1997 was bad. As I mentioned earlier, I rewatched from 1998 onwards, so 1997 isn't really fresh in my mind. You make good points about Austin rising up the card, pre neck injury, before he became a brawler, and Hart and Michaels rivalry. I guess my memory was tainted by the whole WM13 fiasco (although it did give us one of the greatest matches of all time in Austin vs. Hart), with Michaels 'faking' an injury because he didn't want to put Bret over in a rematch at Mania and that giving us Sycho fucking Sid main eventing and having the title. But yeah, Austin, Bret and Shawn were all awesome that year, with exception of the things I mentioned.
WCW was pretty painful between 2000 and 2001 from what I can gather. Sorry to the fans of these two guys (haha if there's any of the latter), but seeing Jeff Jarrett and Scott Steiner being pushed as the main eventers was just... ugh. It's kinda compelling viewing though thanks to WCW unpredictable ridiculousness, but still. I loved watching some of it... mostly in short bursts and a lot of it via Vol 1 and Vol 2 of 'The Very Best of Nitro' DVD sets.
WWF in 2000 was awesome as we touched on. Benoit and Jericho started getting their main event pushes, which I loved seeing and Angle quickly rose up the ranks.
The Invasion happened in 2001 and ended in 2001. It was actually cut short, as the original plan was to have it dragged out until Wrestlemania 18 in 2002. I believe they ended it, because there was a pretty big backlash from fans and the media wasn't being positive about the angle.
As you mentioned correctly though, Shane did indeed want WCW to be its own separate brand and that was actually the original plan.
The first Invasion angle when it first began portrayed the WCW guys and shane McMahon (kayfabe owner) as faces, rising up against the "villainous" Mr. McMahon. So WCW stars were only booked to take out heel WWF stars and act as faces, with exception of a few heel characters like DDP and Buff Bagwell (he was released after his first match though haha). This was done in order to promote WCW as a separate brand.
Apparently, the first plan was to bring WCW Nitro back on the air (I'd imagine not as direct competition to Raw though, because that would be dumb), but this fell through when no television company would touch the WCW brand with a bargepole.
The second idea was to then have WCW "take over" Smackdown and thus have a brand extension like they eventually did have, with Smackdown being the WCW show and Raw maintained as WWF. However, this idea changed after WWF fans booed the hell out of the WCW guys, particularly one Raw episode where Booker T and Buff Bagwell headlined the show in a WCW championship match. Fans booed the hell out of it and hated it. They only cheered when the 'heel' Austin and Angle came out to bury the WCW stars, beating seven shades of shit out of them. Ugh. After the reaction, Vince decided WCW couldn't be saved, so they changed angles and turned it into an Invasion thing, with WCW being heels.
Most people view the "WCW headlining Raw" act as being an act of self-sabotage though, with Vince intentionally screwing the opportunity to promote WCW as a separate brand, due to a number of reasons.
1. That episode of Raw was held in a popular WWF territory, with a crowd that of course would be hostile, when the following week Raw was going to be held in Atlanta Georgia. Why not wait a week?
2. Buff Bagwell in a heavyweight championship match? Seriously? Why not have DDP or Lance Storm?
3. Why have it in the main event when WWF fans paid to see WWF stars in the main event?
So yeah, they ended up going with the Invasion angle instead, which is pretty sad in retrospect. I wish they'd held out for a bit longer, got the bigger contracts and done it properly, but alas, it wasn't to be.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread
Lot of info there, very nice. Yeah it's a huge shame, they really could have handled it so much better and done cooler angles. Granted, the hostility was going to be there for sure. Maybe should have given it a year to buildup or something. I guess me stopping around 2001 makes more sense, because I don't really remember like Goldberg's average WWF run (2003?) and other things like that. But I'm excited to try and go through more now, gotta brute force through that invasion stuff.
Thank goodness Booker got over though, haha. He's one of the best. As for Buff I've heard a lot of weird stories about him and JR... I can't say I really care what the answers are though. But I think he's a fine wrestler and never really has a bad match. I liked him best in 1997 WCW when him and Scott Norton were tag teaming for awhile, they worked really well together. Speaking of, my friend was so right about Scott Steiner's transformation into Big Poppa Pump... he seriously looks like two completely different people across 1998. Nitro after Nitro he looks crazier and crazier, but the change still seems like it was out of nowhere. I was surprised at how much I was digging the Steiners together in 1996-1997 though, and Scott was pretty damn versatile... but one he started injecting the T-Virus into his veins, he lost all mobility and became pretty much worthless. I can't think of a single good thing about him in 1998.
Yeah you should definitely revisit 1997 WWF sometime, it was amazing. Can't forget Mankind's great stuff here too. It was doing away with the cheesiness of 1996 stuff, with more realistic storylines, but there was still a classy emphasis on the match quality. I really dig Vince on commentary too.
Kurt Angle rules. One of the most fun to hate heels of all time haha. Ken Shamrock was pretty awesome, but Kurt was on another level for some outsiders who picked up the business really easily. Very excited to get to him and all that stuff.
No worries on skipping stuff. I skipped World War 3 for the most part, and most of these Nitro's in November/December here aren't too great. Starrcade sounds bad too. I'm reading that this is maybe where Nash became the booker and Hogan has this presidential race angle going, while I think he was supposedly out doing another movie so he's not wrestling much. It's hilarious to watch the Warrior stuff fizzle out like nothing overnight. I think Sting maybe got injured somewhere here. This is where Ric Flair comes back too but gets buried.
Bret Hart has been more fun again with his vicious character, but him and DDP aren't great together in the ring at all and I can really tell Bret is on autopilot here and doesn't really care. He had real smiles at the start of 1998 when he first came in... but now he looks miserable. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Bischoff's plan to make him an ultra cheating heel here and bury him, it seems believable that Eric just wanted to hurt the WWF's roster by buying him out, but never really had big plans for him. Sounds like Vince Russo is the guy who put him at the top again... maybe the only good thing Russo did in WCW, but by that point in the 2000's or whatever who cared? haha, that silver NWO crap was so bad.
You mentioned Lance Storm, one of my friends says he's one of the saving graces of later WCW. I also remember Hogan's yellow/red run again being kind of fun. I have no idea what else to look forward to though. lol, well I remember liking Macho still when he returns (looking juiced up...), my friend describes that era of his as like a funny mid life crisis, but it's awesome. It sounds like I've seen the best of later Macho by this point though.
I want to go on record saying... the Giant is probably one of my least favorite guys ever. I didn't mind him before, or like him much, but in marathon mode rewatching stuff he's been way too hard to fully ignore. Extremely boring to watch since the giants can only do so much but his promos are some of the absolute worst, dryiest, crap ever. I've also already caught some of his Paul White corporate run in early 1999 WWF when he goes over there... they've had him on edge with Rock a bit and MAN, is it painful. Rock absolutely destroys him on the mic, it's so awkward. It's painful to know that Big Show... is always going to be around in my continued rewatching. Ugh.
Thank goodness Booker got over though, haha. He's one of the best. As for Buff I've heard a lot of weird stories about him and JR... I can't say I really care what the answers are though. But I think he's a fine wrestler and never really has a bad match. I liked him best in 1997 WCW when him and Scott Norton were tag teaming for awhile, they worked really well together. Speaking of, my friend was so right about Scott Steiner's transformation into Big Poppa Pump... he seriously looks like two completely different people across 1998. Nitro after Nitro he looks crazier and crazier, but the change still seems like it was out of nowhere. I was surprised at how much I was digging the Steiners together in 1996-1997 though, and Scott was pretty damn versatile... but one he started injecting the T-Virus into his veins, he lost all mobility and became pretty much worthless. I can't think of a single good thing about him in 1998.
Yeah you should definitely revisit 1997 WWF sometime, it was amazing. Can't forget Mankind's great stuff here too. It was doing away with the cheesiness of 1996 stuff, with more realistic storylines, but there was still a classy emphasis on the match quality. I really dig Vince on commentary too.
Kurt Angle rules. One of the most fun to hate heels of all time haha. Ken Shamrock was pretty awesome, but Kurt was on another level for some outsiders who picked up the business really easily. Very excited to get to him and all that stuff.
No worries on skipping stuff. I skipped World War 3 for the most part, and most of these Nitro's in November/December here aren't too great. Starrcade sounds bad too. I'm reading that this is maybe where Nash became the booker and Hogan has this presidential race angle going, while I think he was supposedly out doing another movie so he's not wrestling much. It's hilarious to watch the Warrior stuff fizzle out like nothing overnight. I think Sting maybe got injured somewhere here. This is where Ric Flair comes back too but gets buried.
Bret Hart has been more fun again with his vicious character, but him and DDP aren't great together in the ring at all and I can really tell Bret is on autopilot here and doesn't really care. He had real smiles at the start of 1998 when he first came in... but now he looks miserable. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Bischoff's plan to make him an ultra cheating heel here and bury him, it seems believable that Eric just wanted to hurt the WWF's roster by buying him out, but never really had big plans for him. Sounds like Vince Russo is the guy who put him at the top again... maybe the only good thing Russo did in WCW, but by that point in the 2000's or whatever who cared? haha, that silver NWO crap was so bad.
You mentioned Lance Storm, one of my friends says he's one of the saving graces of later WCW. I also remember Hogan's yellow/red run again being kind of fun. I have no idea what else to look forward to though. lol, well I remember liking Macho still when he returns (looking juiced up...), my friend describes that era of his as like a funny mid life crisis, but it's awesome. It sounds like I've seen the best of later Macho by this point though.
I want to go on record saying... the Giant is probably one of my least favorite guys ever. I didn't mind him before, or like him much, but in marathon mode rewatching stuff he's been way too hard to fully ignore. Extremely boring to watch since the giants can only do so much but his promos are some of the absolute worst, dryiest, crap ever. I've also already caught some of his Paul White corporate run in early 1999 WWF when he goes over there... they've had him on edge with Rock a bit and MAN, is it painful. Rock absolutely destroys him on the mic, it's so awkward. It's painful to know that Big Show... is always going to be around in my continued rewatching. Ugh.