World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[J T]

I went to a consultation group for therapists working with transgender populations the other night. Every therapist there had a story of at least one of their trans* patients being targeted for abuse this week, either verbally or physically, by someone who said something about Trump.

When you are part of the majority group, it is easy for you to miss this stuff. Let's say, just for example, that 99% of people do not engage in acts of bigotry targeting any minority groups. Now, if you are not a member of a targeted minority group, it's not very common for you to encounter someone engaging in bigotry, so it's pretty easy to think that the stated problem is blown way out of proportion. On the other hand, if you are a member of a targeted minority group, then that other 1% has likely made their presence known to you, since every 1 in 100 people you encounter is the type of person who would stop to hurl a slur at you or physically attack you. It seems impossible to deny. The experiences and perspectives of those in the minority and those in the majority simply do not match up. This mismatch is a major source of tension, especially right now.

[jp1]

I guess I missed it when Trump said; "Set up lynching effigies in your front yard." Or; "Hey go beat up on minorities in my name." I just don't recall him saying that.

I remember him saying illegal immigration was a bad thing, and that illegal immigrants should be held to the standard of law, and that accepting immigrants from terrorist harboring nations needs to be implemented via a vetting process. I recall those things.

I also recall him recently saying on 60 minutes, that these bigotry incited crimes were not okay with him. Actually he directly looked into the camera and said:



He didn't even wink when he said it.

Right. Well, okay then...he must not be so bad. I mean, seriously Ex, now you're going to deny outright that he used hateful rhetoric in the first place?

Perhaps you heard what you wanted to hear from him, as opposed to what he actually said. Perhaps they were the same thing, doesn't really matter now.

"Stop it."

So much conviction! I don't know how in the world anyone ever doubted him.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing over semantics. Every time I answer back you sidestep my point and take the discussion in another direction. I'm addressing your posts head on, in full. You are cherry picking.

[dsheinem]

You'll forgive me if I take the SPLC's and CAIR's statements with a huge grain of salt.

Why?

[Sarge]

With the SPLC, I find it hard to trust a group that lumps in organizations like Focus on the Family, the American Family Association, the Family Research Council, and other political opponents into the same hate groups list as the KKK, the New Black Panthers, and others.

My issue with CAIR is their potential ties to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. The FBI was forced to abandon their relationship with them for this reason, having been an unindicted co-conspirator with the Holy Land Foundation, of which the directors were found guilty of funneling money to Hamas.

[Exhuminator]

Every time I answer back you sidestep my point and take the discussion in another direction. I'm addressing your posts head on, in full. You are cherry picking.

Well man, that's how I feel about how you're handling the conversation as well. We both have clear agendas, and we're both not budging from our standpoints. No progress on either side.

I was pissed about this "Trump voters are guilty" stance you, J T, Dsh, and others had taken, but I'm not even mad anymore. I still think the viewpoint is wrong concerning projecting guilt for whatever reasons are assumed legitimate. But as usual these conceptions boil down to subjective logic, and as usual nobody is changing anybody's mind. I don't consider myself a hateful bigot, nor do I actively pursue enabling others to be a hateful bigot. But if you guys think that's untrue, it's your choice to make.

[jp1]

Every time I answer back you sidestep my point and take the discussion in another direction. I'm addressing your posts head on, in full. You are cherry picking.

Well man, that's how I feel about how you're handling the conversation as well. We both have clear agendas, and we're both not budging from our standpoints. No progress on either side.

I was pissed about this "Trump voters are guilty" stance you, J T, Dsh, and others had taken, but I'm not even mad anymore. I still think the viewpoint is wrong concerning projecting guilt for whatever reasons are assumed legitimate. But as usual these conceptions boil down to subjective logic, and as usual nobody is changing anybody's mind. I don't consider myself a hateful bigot, nor do I actively pursue enabling others to be a hateful bigot. But if you guys think that's untrue, it's your choice to make.

I don't consider you a hateful bigot. I also have no intention of making the assumption that you "actively pursue" enabling others to be a bigot either.

That's the part that is most frustrating, especially concerning you, is that I have talked with you both publicly and privately about many things and I have never perceived you to be either of those things.

I suppose you and I will have to agree to disagree. Nothing personal, although I'm sure it came across as such. What can I say man, I'm passionate about it. I have a vested interest in seeing many of these people do well on a personal level, but I also have compassion for them and the nasty stuff that is going down has got me really pissed off.

[J T]

There are a few things I want to clarify. I am not willing to use so broad of a brush to say that all Trump voters are endorsing racism, explicitly or complicitly. Roughly 60.9 million people voted for Trump. That's approximately about 19% of the estimated 318.86 million people of the US population. I'm not going to condemn almost 1/5th of the country, when I have no idea what their thought process was in the voting booth. When you're forced into a mostly either/or decision, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

That being said, there were clearly racists supporting Trump. When the KKK newspaper makes you their officially endorsed candidate, you don't get to say that your party had no help from racists. I am bothered by the willful denial of racism (and all other forms of prejudice) that I keep seeing on this forum and out in the rest of the world. I am bothered by people who don't recognize that their ability to turn a blind eye to prejudice and stay silent about it is a luxury that the victims of prejudice don't have. I don't know why it is so hard to acknowledge injustice when it is there, or why "social justice warrior" is now supposed to be taken as an insult rather than a badge of honor. I am bothered by those of you who, like the angry yelling 'liberal' man in that video posted earlier, seem to want to say "this is all your fault liberals! You shouldn't have addressed racism and inequality! Now people feel bad and won't vote for you! Stand down and stop challenging people! You have Trump because you pointed out what was wrong with Trump and now you must suffer! SUFFER YOU LIBERAL WHINY SJW BLEEDING-HEART SAFESPACE-SEEKING EASILY-TRIGGERED WELFARE-LOVING PUSSY BABIES!" (That may be a little bit of an exaggeration of the angry sentiment I feel directed at me, but not much of one).

Advocates of social justice have set a high standard for equality. Was that standard too high? Yes and no. I only say 'yes' because to be effective in promoting equality, you have to start where the culture is at. I think we overestimated where the culture is at. When you're dealing with people who can barely restrain themselves from spitting out racial slurs, you tend to lose their interest when your standard gets into the subtler details of systemic racism and microagressions. Know your audience. Even when you have an audience with the majority members who will acknowledge systemic racism and microagressions, it's hard to get them to care enough about equality to ever give up any of their white/hetero/male/cisgender privilege because nobody ever fully wants to give up an advantage. I also say 'no' it is not too high a standard to ask for equality though because the high standard is still what we should aspire to. Every race, religion, gender, gender expression, ability, and sexual orientation should be on more-or-less equal footing in society. I stand by that.

[Exhuminator]

I'm not going to condemn almost 1/5th of the country, when I have no idea what their thought process was in the voting booth. When you're forced into a mostly either/or decision, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

That's all I was ever trying to say.

That being said, there were clearly racists supporting Trump. When the KKK newspaper makes you their officially endorsed candidate, you don't get to say that your party had no help from racists.

Do you not remember eight years ago when racists were supporting Obama? Here's one article still online that may jog your memory:

http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/59326/

"Just as Sen. Barack Obama sought to distance himself from controversial racial remarks made by his pastor, an anti-American government, anti-white and virulently anti-Semitic black supremacist party has endorsed the presidential candidate on Obama’s own website. “Obama will stir the ‘Melting Pot’ into a better ‘Molten America,'” states an endorsement from the New Black Panther Party, or NBPP, which is a registered team member and blogger on Obama’s “MyObama” campaign website. The NBPP is a controversial black extremist party whose leaders are notorious for their racist statements and for leading anti-white activism."

There was some controversial evidence showing Obama marched with the NBPP back in 2007:

http://usherald.com/malik-shabazz-wants ... s-website/

And here's a vintage 2008 screenshot showing the NBPP support on Obama's own campaign website:



So back when Obama had racists supporting his campaign, did you condemn Obama voters for supporting a candidate who harbored such racist support? I don't recall anyone condemning Obama voters for supporting a candidate who unfortunately had some extremists in his support group, which he approved of even. And the mainstream media certainly didn't go out of their way to make a big deal out of black supremacists supporting Obama.

But now that it's a white president with some unfortunate white supremacists supporting him, the mainstream media dropped a nuclear bomb shitstorm about that. This situation seems more than a little hypocritical to me, and I just can't condone the double standard.

why "social justice warrior" is now supposed to be taken as an insult rather than a badge of honor

The reason why that is has been explained multiple times in this thread recently. And it has nothing to do with being against people who value social equality.

SUFFER YOU LIBERAL WHINY SJW BLEEDING-HEART SAFESPACE-SEEKING EASILY-TRIGGERED WELFARE-LOVING PUSSY BABIES!

I guess that's about as annoying as COWER DOWN YOU BIGOTED RACIST SELFISH PRIVILEGED ASS IGNORANT WHITE POWER LOVING HOMOPHOBIC CHAUVINISTS!

I think we overestimated where the culture is at.

I agree with that sentiment.

Every race, religion, gender, gender expression, ability, and sexual orientation should be on more-or-less equal footing in society. I stand by that.

I agree with the FTFY version.

[Tanooki]

Hah fantastic post and I forgot about Shabazz and that lovely New Black Panther Party. I recall now clearly and i'm sure EX you or someone can do the copy pasta with images or links, that they did crap on election day too. I recall cases of voter intimidation and perhaps being too close to election booths trying to round up support for their guy while scaring those away looking to vote for the other in a large city or two. I don't remember if arrests or much came of it. As you have there Obama was fine with their support and all the crap they said made it kind of surprising. Funny how memory gets fuzzy in time that 8 years later Trump who didn't want such people having their faces on his site, yet didn't dissuade them either from supporting him, gets thrown under the bus for it. Double standards at the finest.

[Exhuminator]

I recall now clearly and i'm sure EX you or someone can do the copy pasta with images or links, that they did crap on election day too.

Yes the NBPP did try to do poll booth intimidation:



Two members of the New Black Panther party, Minister King Samir Shabazz, and Jerry Jackson, stood in front of the entrance to the polling station in uniforms that have been described as military or paramilitary.[3][4][5] Minister King Shabazz carried a billy club, and is reported to have pointed it at voters while both men shouted racial slurs,[6] including phrases such as "white devil" and "you're about to be ruled by the black man, cracker."[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black ... l_response



"some voters approach the polls and then turn away, apparently in response to the New Black Panther Party members" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black ... l_response



This incident became a case that went to the Department of Justice. The case was watered down to only charging Minister King Shabazz and not the party he was leading. Some called this out as a wrist slap due to the Obama administration having control over the Department of Justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black ... ation_case

However you want to slice it, it's true that black supremacists did indeed try to affect the election, in support of Obama. And Obama was silently okay with that. Hey wait a second, this sounds kind of familiar...