World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[dsheinem]

here can be far more productive ways to behave either militantly with things, or not being a huge pussy about it needing safe spaces, crying rooms, deferred tests, childrens toys and the rest to get over it. It pity anyone in the latter part of that last sentence if they think they'll get far in the working world behaving like that.

lolwut

[jp1]

Why not? I'm interested to hear the perspective of a left leaning blue that doesn't agree with the sentiment. Perhaps I could suppress some of my own outrage if I could understand it from a different point of view.

As I mentioned in my edited post, I do not think that the tone of the article is productive. It demonizes people who did not vote for my candidate of choice in the last election. There are many reasons that they might have done so, and some of those reasons might have outweighed their distaste for the bigotry displayed by Donald Trump and some of his supporters during the campaign. I am not in a position to judge each and every voter's motivation for supporting Donald Trump with their vote, and I do not think that labeling all of them as bigots and racists, or even complicit in bigoted and racist acts taken by his administration, is accurate.

More importantly, the article does absolutely nothing to persuade people that voted for Donald Trump that they should not have done so and that they should not do so when he is up for re-election in 2020. (Sanctimonious shaming only works on children, and in my experience, it has precisely the opposite effect on adults.) The better approach, IMO, is to educate people regarding the effects of Donald Trump's bigotry and how much it hurts good people so that, the next time they are in a voting booth, they decide to pull the lever for a democratic candidate.

Hmmm, I definitely respect you. I don't know if I can agree with the milk toast approach though.

"some of those reasons might have outweighed their distaste for the bigotry displayed by Donald Trump and some of his supporters during the campaign."

We've seen some of this, and I certainly understand where these people are coming from...in a vague sense. I don't know how well I can attempt to educate a person who has a "distaste for bigotry" that is outweighed by their political agenda.

Nor can I agree that telling the truth about the situation is "Sanctimonious shaming". If anything assuming these people are too stupid to understand they voted for a bigot is more dangerous than approaching them outright. It's clear that "shaming" is what kept some of them inactive in the past. As soon as they found a political voice they were no longer ashamed and have since become bold about their opinions.

I have never, and will never say that simply voting for Trump makes you a bigot. You're right it's too complex for that. The fact that you voted for a bigot should make you uncomfortable at least, or in my opinion, you are on some level justifying the bigotry.

Trump bullied his way in, his voters (in part, again not all) have demonstrated bullying behaviors, some imitation alpha male bullshit right here in this thread is demonstrative of the same attitude. I won't stand for it, call it what you like.

The comparisons to Obama and such are falsehoods. It is a scapegoat excuse for brushing the racism of Trump off their shoulders. Obama never advocated hate or violence. It's a childish "Us vs. Them" argument you will get every time. Save for the Trump voter who will own their vote and the reasoning for it in full.

Stand for something if you want to make a difference. "Sticking it to the man" or voting for Trump out of spite or revenge is not standing for something. Those are weak willed pathetic attempts at having a backbone through the voice box of another man. Classic closeted racist tactics. The new sheet is a Trump sticker.

Sure, that isn't true for everyone. The fact that it is true for ANYONE should be enough not to drive around rocking one on your bumper. I can't find a diplomatic way to approach that.

[prfsnl_gmr]

I understand what you're saying, jp1, and I certainly understand your frustration. Earlier this week, I saw someone with two Trump campaign signs taped to the back of their minivan. I don't know that person, but I feel like the crass display told me a lot about her values. (BTW...if any of you is ever picking a jury, always ask about the panel about the stickers on their cars. Their responses to that question often reveal quite a bit about their values.)

Also, while I did not like the tone of the article mentioned above, I do agree with its basic thesis. Namely, if you vote for a candidate that espouses certain positions, you bear some responsibility for his or her actions to the extent they are consistent with that position. I knew, when I voted for Obama again in 2012, that he would continue policies permitting the extrajudicial murder of US citizens living abroad. Although the targets of these efforts were some of the worst people imaginable, I still find that position abhorrent, and I share some of the blame for the fact that, during his presidency, the US continued those awful policies. I clearly did not find them so abhorrent, however, that I refrained from voting for him (or his opponent, who also would have continued the policies). I have to own that to a certain extent, just as I think that people who voted for Donald Trump in the last election will bear some responsibility for any actions he takes consistent with his bigoted rhetoric.

Again, however, I understand why a lot of good people might have voted for him, and I understand why they might have viewed him as the better candidate in the last election. (Forlorn's outstanding post a few pages back was incredibly enlightening.). I want these people to vote for better candidates in 2018 and 2020 (and I think that they want to vote for better candidates too), but I am not going to reach them by calling them racists and hicks - or by repeatedly attempting to shame them for not picking my candidate of choice (who, In retrospect, was pretty terrible).

I might, however, reach them by treating them with respect and attempting to understand their hopes, fears, and motivations. Certainly, there will be some truly awful people who aren't worth reaching, but I don't believe that nearly 59 million of my fellow Americans are in this category.

So, ultimately, it isn't that I disagree with the article's thesis. I just don't think that it's counterproductive to my interests as an American, first, and a Democrat, second.

[Exhuminator]

Jp1, you never told me if you took responsibility for being part of a group of hate mongers. Remember, the anti-Trump voters who beat up an 11 year old kid?:



So you willingly partake in supporting a party that houses child beaters! Horrible. How do you even sleep at night sir?

And speaking of hurting kids...

The comparisons to Obama and such are falsehoods.

Do you take responsibility for this kid's death?:

Do you take responsibility for hundreds of other kids' deaths like that one?

If you voted for Obama you should! You elected a president who has consciously made hundreds of war orphans and destroyed thousands of families due to his questionably legal drone strikes:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/12/u-s-te ... -children/

http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/us-airs ... rimes.html

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q ... e-strikes/

https://www.transcend.org/tms/2016/02/d ... -children/

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php/ ... -and-yemen

That's right, all you Obama voters put a serial child murderer in office. Do you take responsibility for all these dead kids and ruined families? It's disgusting! You owe all us none Obama voters an apology right now!

Does that seem like stupid logic to you? Good, because so does your "you willingly voted a bigot into office" constant illogical ranting. So please, give it up. It's disingenuous at best. Loads of people voted for Trump, including many minorities, a fact proven twice in this thread already. Do you honestly think minorities voted for Trump so that they could see their fellow minorities get beat up by bigots? No? Then for sanity's sake neither did the vast majority of the white voters.

The minorities who voted for Trump, did it for the same reason I did. We voted a man into office who might actually do something positive with the economy. You know, the same economy that feeds social welfare systems for the minorities and illegals who need it to survive? Yeah. That stuff doesn't run on hope and change, it runs on cold hard cash. God forbid we look past a man's shortcomings in light of the possibility he might actually get this country's economy out of neutral. A prospect that would actually help everyone in the nation, regardless of their color, sexual orientation, religion, or preference for bathroom privileges.

We couldn't change who Trump is before we voted him in. Nobody gets the luxury of defining only the good qualities of their presidential hopeful, and deleting the bad parts. You vote in the whole person, and hope the good parts win out overall. It's a gamble, a roll of the dice every time. You didn't think Obama would look the other way as his drones continuously kill the shit out of kids all over the middle east. (And he didn't even bother to mention that one on the campaign trail.) But Obama was full of surprises. So who knows, maybe the new man who you think is pure evil already, will surprise you with some good you never saw coming instead.

[J T]

Do you take responsibility for all these dead kids and ruined families?

Yes. I do. I would always prefer our country find a peaceful solution to its problems, but too often, we don't. It always bothers me that during wartime we only seem to talk about American lives lost in battle, as if the lives of those in the countries we were fighting didn't matter.

[MrPopo]

The minorities who voted for Trump, did it for the same reason I did. We voted a man into office who might actually do something positive with the economy.

In the same way an infant might punch out Mike Tyson.

[jp1]

Ex - Hillary did not call for the beating of that child. Obama did not advocate for the murder of children while campaigning.

Do I take responsibility in some manner for his actions, yes I do, I don't condone them at all. I find them disgusting actually.

The difference being that he didn't openly discuss how he was going to do it on the campaign trail, repeatedly. Trumps entire campaign was filled with hate speech towards minorities, the fact that some minorities voted for him doesn't change that.

You see you are making false equivalencies between Obama, Hillary, and Trump. So, you're right they are not fair. I still take some responsibility for the bad things Obama did though, because I have no choice. My vote was partially responsible for the things he did because it was partially responsible for putting him in a position to do them. The motivation behind the vote is irrelevant.

So Trump, a failed businessman, might get the economy out of neutral. That should put all of the people who will undoubtedly suffer under his administration to sleep at night with a nice smile on their face. I'm sure the people who are being threatened with lynchings, fire, etc... don't mind due to the prospect of a fraud who has gone bankrupt more than he has been successful possibly boosting the economy a tiny bit.

You know, you have convinced me Ex. I don't mind Trumps hatred toward everyone who isn't him any longer. I'm waiting for that "Great America" he promised on my tip toes while holding my breath. Just like the two mock lynchings down the street from me that are sitting in a yard for children and the world to see, a yard that prominently displays a Trump sign as well.

[CRTGAMER]

What is really pathetic is blaming Trump for hateful displays, beating up individuals whether they support Clinton or Trump and inciting violence while damaging property during protests. I do not fault the incidents on the President Elect, the individuals breaking the law are the true blame and need to take ownership for their actions. Don't play nice, arrest any bastard that breaks the law.

Trump is not even president yet; all the hate will not change anything. Deal with it, he is the next President! See how he does and if you don't like it vote him out in the next election. If you don't like that Clinton lost even with more votes focus getting the Electoral College abolished instead of all the protests that will make no difference.

[prfsnl_gmr]

Just like the two mock lynchings down the street from me that are sitting in a yard for children and the world to see, a yard that prominently displays a Trump sign as well.

Ugh. That's awful, jp1. That horrible display says so much about that person's character, and I hope that he or she is ostracized appropriately.

[jp1]

Just like the two mock lynchings down the street from me that are sitting in a yard for children and the world to see, a yard that prominently displays a Trump sign as well.

Ugh. That's awful, jp1. That horrible display says so much about that person's character, and I hope that he or she is ostracized appropriately.

Yes, I agree. I also get the not so subtle message. However, you see, the lynchings were not there before Trump won the election. Therefor I can only come to the conclusion that the clear implications of being less disgusted by his bigotry than you are by the horrible liberal agenda are being seen by these people.

There is no sidestepping that. Empowering a bigot as the POTUS sends a clear message to already ignorant and hateful people. Probably a large reason he rallied directly for their votes.

I get it though...we should play nice. Since I don't agree with that sentiment at all I'll refrain from continued debate on the matter.

Frankly, I'm tired of stating the obvious anyway.