World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[J T]

I'm going to ask for a little perspective taking from you guys who are trying to distance the Trump campaign from prejudice and discrimination. Please take a moment to honestly ask yourself the following questions...

Imagine you just got pulled over by a cop who doesn't know you. Would you rather be black or white in this situation? If you said you would rather not be black in this situation, can you imagine that if you were a black person, you might feel a bit more hopeless knowing that the one candidate who was willing to say the phrase "black lives matter" lost the election?

If you're walking through the streets alone in America after a terrorist attack has happened, do you feel safer being a man wearing a Christian priest's collar or a woman wearing a Muslim hijab? If it's worse to be wearing the hijab, do you think it feels a little bit scarier to walk among strangers when you know that the country voted for a candidate who called for banning all muslims from the country?

If you're holding hands with your lover in public, do you feel safer if you are a heterosexual couple or if you are a gay couple? If you would feel less safe as a gay couple, can you imagine that you might be a little more worried today knowing that the people around you largely voted for a vice president who has historically said gay marriage should be denied because "societal collapse was always brought about following an advent of the deterioration of marriage and family."?

If you're negotiating for your salary at a new job, would you rather be a man or an equally qualified woman? If you feel a bit less confident about getting a good salary as a woman, can you imagine that you might feel just that much less hopeful about your future after seeing Hillary, perhaps the most politically experienced candidate to ever run for president, lose votes to a male reailty TV star with no prior political experience?

If you are a trans-man who no longer looks like a woman at all (like these dudes), would you rather be required to be in a men's bathroom or a women's bathroom? Do you think you might be a bit more concerned about using public restrooms now knowing that Trump and Pence want to keep trans people out of their self-identified gender's bathroom?

You don't have to answer these questions on the forum. Just answer them for yourself.

[dsheinem]

Great post, JT.

I stepped away from this thread for much of yesterday and probably will stay away much of today because I am still angry about the silence from non-bigoted members of the right (the vast majority of Trump voters) concerning the extremely bigoted actions by so many groups and individuals who are invoking Trump's victory as cause to practice hate (a small but vocal and powerful minority of Trump voters). This anger I feel was, obviously, apparent in the tone of the posts I made the last day or two. While I would never apologize for that tone or those posts (I think it is good for people to hear exactly how upset their fellow citizens are), I also understand that for some people they are uncomfortable with what that tone does to the discussion more generally and that it risks obscuring the ideas I am trying to get across. Those are ideas which I think most of you (even Trump supporters in this thread) would probably agree with. So, since I just woke up and am in a fairly good mood this morning, I will try to answer some questions that I thought were launched my way fairly concisely, say my piece, and check back later...

Dave, couldnt it be just as plausible or likely from your story that he found her attractive?I think a lot of this fear that is there has been drummed up.

I don't know that someone leering at a woman for a prolonged period with a gun on his hip is any better than someone glaring at a black kid for a prolonged period with a gun on his hip, so that difference doesn't really matter to me. I can't know if there was "mal intent" to any of it, but again, those subject to it were already on edge and so that is how it was taken. Yes - the fear that some people are feeling has been "drummed up" by the trolls and the far right bigoted extremists. They have succeeded in stoking fear in the days after the election, which is their aim. It is that exact fear that they've created that so angers me and that powerful words of denunciation and meaningful actions from leading figures on the right would potentially quell. It is up to the mass of people on the right, who have told us all over and again how non-bigoted they are, to push their leaders to be outspoken against hate ESPECIALLY in pressure cooker situations like the one we find ourselves in right now.

Just out of curiosity, though, do you believe in everything Sec. Clinton believes in, has said, or has done? By your own logic, I can only assume that you are endorsing those actions and positions in their totality.

I don't believe in everything any politician campaigns on or any party puts on their platform, and I have made it my life's work to regularly critique all political rhetoric from any/all figures. Hillary's candidacy was extremely bothersome and flawed, as was Bernie Sanders', as has been Obama's presidency, etc. I have never shied away from pointing out their shortcomings and their poor choices whenever they make them. I believe that a party's supporters have the most responsibility and agency to do so, which is again what has me especially ticked about the present moment...

Has Sec. Clinton said anything about the riots? Just wondering.

Not that I've seen. If there's evidence that individuals are being systematically targeted by Clinton supporters for some immutable characteristic of their identity, then she should. I don't see much of that happening at present, certainly not to the scale that it is on the right. Those "riots" you refer to seem to be fairly peaceful by in large (I think I read of only one or two anti-Trump protests where any crimes took place) and I think that there are a very small handful of incidents where people have been personally targeted. There's not to condone them, but I don't see palpable fears being expressed by people on the right that they feel threatened at present (JT's last post speaks to this well)

Let's break it down:

If you voted for Donald Trump your a racist, even if you didn't realize you're a racist. If you still don't realize you're a racist, you need to think about it until you realize either A. You are a racist, or B. You're not and now you feel really guilty about voting for him. That seems to be the only direction this conversation is moving.

This is just simply not the argument that I or others have made in this thread. I don't think Trump voters are - as a whole - especially racist. Statistically we know that many Trump voters also voted twice for Obama, in fact, which suggests that race is not a major concern for many of them. I am not sure how many times I can say this or in how many different ways: If you vote for someone who courts racists, and then after he wins those racists do many racist things and work hard to create a climate of fear, you absolutely bear some responsibility to do something about it. Pressure your newly-elected leaders to put those voices down, go stand with and stand up for your friends who feel scared, publish, share, and speak out against it in those contexts where you have influence. When, instead, those who are most afraid are only hearing most Trump supporters (including those in this thread) shout back things like "calm down" or "it's the same on both sides" or make other minimizing arguments...well, it makes it seem like you don't actually consider the hatemongers who identify with your candidate (or the victims of their fear-stoking) to really be that serious of a concern.

The last eight years has been horrible for Christian bashing and telling white people, men in particular, that they should apologize for being born white while giving every advantage to everyone and anyone else whether they are qualified or not. That my daughter's need to share a bathroom in public with an adult male. That a family doesn't matter because they're not liberal, black, illegal, gay, Asian, or anything else other then white.

]The last eight years has been horrible for Christian bashing and telling white people, men in particular, that they should apologize for being born white while giving every advantage to everyone and anyone else whether they are qualified or not. That my daughter's need to share a bathroom in public with an adult male. That a family doesn't matter because they're not liberal, black, illegal, gay, Asian, or anything else other then white.

I am sorry you feel this way, but I struggle a bit to understand why you do. In what specific ways have you been persecuted for being a straight cisgender white christian male? What specific opportunities have been closed off to you, what rights are now denied to you, or what access has been taken away from you? If you are upset that people have become more vocal about how your values don't reflect their own and about how they have spoken loudly that they shouldn't be denied equal treatment and power because of those conflicting views, well then you are reading a "white men don't matter" argument into a "hey, we matter too!" argument...and that's a misread. Systematic and deliberate oppression of minorities is a sociologically, historically, statistically proven fact in this country. Systematic and deliberate oppression of the majority is a myth.

-And not only that, but besides capturing over 40% of the Democratic vote, he also had black voters, latino voters, and yes even MUSLIM voters...But this cannot be. Gay people, black people, latinos, Muslims, and even WOMEN voted for Trump?! Impossible, because my safe spot circle jerk media says it never happened! Oh, so I guess gays, blacks, latinos, Muslims, and women are just as guilty for the hate crimes going on as those rich old racist white dudes. What a bunch of elitist asshats, the lot of them! Yeah I'm being a smart ass. Because I'm tired of wading waste deep in the bullshit in this thread. Some of you dudes legit lived in a political bubble, and that's why you're all so shocked now that's it's popped and you can see the real world.

-This high & mighty SJW attitude is a big part of what cost you this election. Learn to compromise instead of pointing fingers and acting like the smarmy thought police.

-As I said, I know that Trump did surprisingly well with groups that many did not expect him to have done well with. But while you can find individual examples of many people voting for/against anyone, let's be reminded of the actual stats from exit and other polling:

Blacks - 88% Clinton, 8% Trump
Latinos -65% Clinton, 35% Trump
Muslims - 72% Clinton, 4% Trump
LGBTQ - 78 % Clinton, 14% Trump
Women - 54% Clinton, 42% Trump

Those are some pretty big divides. It is a misrepresentation to pull out a minority of the voters in those groups and have them stand in as an argument against the concerns felt by a large number of people who are otherwise like them, and who have been targeted in the lead up to/wake of the election.

-I for one don't live in a political bubble. I spend time almost every day or every other day on The Drudge Report, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Breitbart, FoxNews, Vox, Salon, Slate, the Atlantic, The New Yorker, Politico, RealClearPolitics, fivethirtyeight, Forbes, The Economist, some Gawker sites, etc. I visit (sigh) Infowars from time to time. I truly read a lot of political news and opinion every day, from as many angles as I can. My social media feed has a lot of people across a true and full range of political opinions - from people in HS that I am pretty sure are now in a militia to former professors who are proud Marxists. I read stuff from all of them, all the time. I say all this not to "prove" that I am well-rounded, but I don't think it is fair to suggest that someone's opinion is necessarily being formed in a bubble/echo-chamber. As someone who has previously published and is again writing about political rhetoric in new media, I really do believe that it is my responsibility weed through a lot of things on the regular.

-I agree that the "SJW folks" have an image problem and a rhetoric problem, and I am working to try and fix that in the ways that I can, too. I absolutely hear that criticism and am regularly incensed by the "call out culture" and the like even within even left-leanging groups.

I think that answers most of the stuff that I felt was addressed to me or that I felt compelled to chime in on.

I'll just add once again that what is most frustrating is the silence from Trump, his high profile surrogates, and his backers regarding the work of his most bigoted supporters to stoke fear. What is most frustrating is that much of the right seems to think folks like myself are arguing simply about Trump himself or the election itself, but really it is an argument about what happens NOW and what happens going forward. The past is the past: show me what you are going to do now. If I feel like you share some of my core values, I will make it a point to find ways to work together with you, whatever you did in the past, to help ensure those values are protected for everyone.

I have some hope that Trump might be an ok president, or at least no worse than some other bad presidents. I posted something about that back on Wednesday, and my issue right now is not with the hypotheticals of Trump's policy decisions, it is with the rhetoric of the current moment.

[Blu]

These are things that Trump has said and/or done:

He has a long history of discriminating against minorities. He started his real estate career by refusing to rent to black people. He attacked the Central Park 5 in the '80s and claimed just last month that they were still guilty, despite being cleared by DNA. A biography of him claimed he said he doesn't like black guys counting his money and that "laziness is a trait in blacks." In a later interview, he said it was probably true that he did actually say that. Black workers at his casino were made to leave the floor when he was visiting in the '80s.

He thought an American-born judge was biased because, "We're building a wall. He's Mexican." He started his campaign by calling Mexican immigrants rapists and drug dealers, yet hemmed and hawed when asked about David Duke endorsing him. When a Latino man was assaulted last year by two of his supporters, he claimed his supporters were "very passionate."

He mocked Chinese people with a stereotypical accent at a rally in Alabama. He asked a Korean-American if he was from Korea and rolled his eyes when the man responded that he was born in America.

He repeatedly and falsely claimed that thousands of Muslims were cheering in NJ on 9/11. He has said Muslim-Americans (mostly non-white) should be on a registry and when asked how that differed from Jews registering in Nazi Germany, said, "You tell me." When a town hall participant said, "We have a problem in this country, it's called Muslims," Trump said, "We're going to be looking at that and a lot of different things."

He has been vocally endorsed and celebrated by every white supremacist group, some of whose members have engaged in hate crimes against minorities since the election.

He bragged about sexually assaulting women, said he hired a woman with no experience based solely on her looks, said "putting a wife to work is a very dangerous thing," speaks of his own daughters in a sexual way, including when one of them was 1 year old. And he wants to repeal LGBT rights and has a very anti-gay VP.

Are these instances problematic? Or are they not? What are people's thoughts?


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[jp1]

These are things that Trump has said and/or done:

He has a long history of discriminating against minorities. He started his real estate career by refusing to rent to black people. He attacked the Central Park 5 in the '80s and claimed just last month that they were still guilty, despite being cleared by DNA. A biography of him claimed he said he doesn't like black guys counting his money and that "laziness is a trait in blacks." In a later interview, he said it was probably true that he did actually say that. Black workers at his casino were made to leave the floor when he was visiting in the '80s.

He thought an American-born judge was biased because, "We're building a wall. He's Mexican." He started his campaign by calling Mexican immigrants rapists and drug dealers, yet hemmed and hawed when asked about David Duke endorsing him. When a Latino man was assaulted last year by two of his supporters, he claimed his supporters were "very passionate."

He mocked Chinese people with a stereotypical accent at a rally in Alabama. He asked a Korean-American if he was from Korea and rolled his eyes when the man responded that he was born in America.

He repeatedly and falsely claimed that thousands of Muslims were cheering in NJ on 9/11. He has said Muslim-Americans (mostly non-white) should be on a registry and when asked how that differed from Jews registering in Nazi Germany, said, "You tell me." When a town hall participant said, "We have a problem in this country, it's called Muslims," Trump said, "We're going to be looking at that and a lot of different things."

He has been vocally endorsed and celebrated by every white supremacist group, some of whose members have engaged in hate crimes against minorities since the election.

He bragged about sexually assaulting women, said he hired a woman with no experience based solely on her looks, said "putting a wife to work is a very dangerous thing," speaks of his own daughters in a sexual way, including when one of them was 1 year old. And he wants to repeal LGBT rights and has a very anti-gay VP.

Are these instances problematic? Or are they not? What are people's thoughts?


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“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

EDIT: Good point BMF.

[BogusMeatFactory]

I think we all need to just take a step back, breathe deeply and stop running around in circles. Clearly there is something list in translation between the two sides and it isn't going to be fixed by reiterating it over and over. Let it stew.

As for Tanooki and tge definition of a democrat, let's compare Trump's policies. Strict immigration policies, Republican. Huge tax breaks for businesses, republican. Removal of large government run programs, republican. Leaving social and health policies up to states, republican. Ramped up military spending, republican. Oh but he is a democrat because he was one a long time ago.

[MrPopo]

Something I was musing about last night; the liberal equality platform has a massive problem with its image because of their terrible use of language. Specifically, using the phrases "white privilege" and "male privilege". Now, the intent behind both is sound; see JT's post earlier about scenarios pointing out that it is better to be a white male rather than all the other options. But when phrased as "privilege" it ends up not resonating at all with that rural group of people who are struggling to make ends meet. They hear "privilege" and think you're crazy. But I suspect they would agree with JT's assertions that they'd be worse off if they weren't white and male. So that platform needs to figure it its messaging better.

[dsheinem]

Something I was musing about last night; the liberal equality platform has a massive problem with its image because of their terrible use of language. Specifically, using the phrases "white privilege" and "male privilege". Now, the intent behind both is sound; see JT's post earlier about scenarios pointing out that it is better to be a white male rather than all the other options. But when phrased as "privilege" it ends up not resonating at all with that rural group of people who are struggling to make ends meet. They hear "privilege" and think you're crazy. But I suspect they would agree with JT's assertions that they'd be worse off if they weren't white and male. So that platform needs to figure it its messaging better.

You are absolutely right. I tend to de-emphasize that word when working with my mostly rural working-class students from a depressed region and use terms like "hierarchical advantage" or "structural and historical advantage"...but I don't know that "advantage" is a better word necessarily. But you certainly have your finger on the pulse of what a lot of us on the left are grappling with, and I hope that this at least some comfort that we can do better.

[MrPopo]

You might try this Dave:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/s ... -there-is/

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon.

[jp1]

You might try this Dave:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/s ... -there-is/

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon.

I think that people understand it just fine, they simply won't accept it. So, the article will seem like it is condescending in it's tone. Some people just don't want to accept that their failures are their own and despite having every opportunity short of being born rich they didn't reach their full potential. Someone must take the blame, and it isn't them.

Besides, if we make it equal for everyone just imagine how much worse all of us that have been given the blessing of opportunity since birth will do. They are aware of this as well. It is part of the "taking our jobs" business.

[CRTGAMER]

http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/11/m ... to-hitler/

A history teacher at Mountain View High School has been placed on paid leave after drawing parallels between Republican President-elect Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler in his lesson plan.

Frank Navarro, who’s taught at the school for 40 years, was asked to leave midday Thursday after a parent sent an email to the school expressing concerns about statements Navarro made in class. Mountain View/Los Altos High School District Superintendent Jeff Harding confirmed the incident Friday but declined to describe the parent’s complaints.

Navarro, an expert on the Holocaust, said school officials declined to read him the email and also declined his request to review the lesson plan with him.

“This feels like we’re trying to squash free speech,” he said. “Everything I talk about is factually based. They can go and check it out. “It’s not propaganda or bias if it’s based on hard facts.”

Though Navarro said school officials originally told him to return on Wednesday, Harding said he could return as early as Monday.

“We are interested in getting Frank back in the classroom…we’re just trying to maintain our due diligence,” he said. “We have a heightened emotional environment right now with the election. It’s always a challenge to maintain a line in a classroom.”

Tensions have run high throughout the Bay Area after Trump’s victory, with many protesting in the streets and hundreds of students staging walkouts. Navarro’s suspension came on the same day Milpitas High School Principal Phil Morales was placed on administrative leave for using a profanity about the president-elect during a student walkout in protest of Trump.

Though he said he regretted the language he used, Morales stood by his actions and said he would continue advocating for his students.

The Oracle, Mountain View High’s independent student newspaper, said some of Navarro’s students alleged his lessons were one-sided and that Navarro said things about Trump that his supporters would find offensive. Other students defended Navarro. A change.org petition calling for his return had more than 1,200 signatures as of Friday evening.

Meanwhile Navarro, who also teaches special education, argues his lesson plan was not based on personal opinion, but historical facts. The 65-year-old was named a Mandel Fellow for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in 1997 and has studied at the International Center for the Study of the Holocaust in Jerusalem. Hitler’s persecution of Jews and rise to power has “remarkable parallels” to Trump’s comments on Latinos, Blacks and Muslims in his own bid for power, he said.

“I said (to school officials), ‘I’m not pulling these facts out of my hat. It’s based on experience and work and if I’m wrong, show we where I’m wrong.’ And there was silence,” he said.

Navarro, who is Mexican-American and was raised in Oakland, said he’s concerned for many of his students during this political climate.

“I’ve had Mexican kids come and say, ‘Hey, Mr. Navarro, I might be deported,'” he said.

“Is it better to see bigotry and say nothing? That’s what the principal was telling me (during our conversation). In my silence, I would be substantiating the bigotry.”