World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[dsheinem]

America has never been great.

Historically, it's a country that's literally been built on the the continual labor exploitation and forced migration of minorities (Native Americans, African slaves, European & Asian immigrants, Latino immigrants, etc.) and on the systematic political exclusion and persecution of those whose immutable physical traits are seen as threats to those who hold power (women, blacks, gays, arabs, etc.).

It has not been through the ideological power of some great set of noble values that we profess or through some divine blessing that we've earned that we've been able to become a global superpower. It is because we got enormously wealthy by oppressing people in our own country (and across the world), used that wealth to create our economy (and our military, our education, our technology, etc.), and then decided we'd start using our unethically earned position of power to start claiming moral authority and exerting influence accordingly.*

Trump is not new. Every time the majority starts to feel angry, apprehensive, or both they start ratcheting up calls to start oppressing more. "Give us our country ill-earned wealth back!" Whether they can recognize it or not, this is the kind of "greatness" Trump's supporters were asking for a return to: a hollow one built on monetizing division, not a noble one built on a principled ideology of equity and freedom. That's probably why, for example, they really didn't give two shits about his personal character, his faith, or any of the rest of that bullshit they pay lip service to when they think things are good.

*along the way, we have done some things we can be proud of

[brunoafh]

random retarded garbage as usual

Go ahead, I challenge you to point out what Trump has said that is RAYCIS without defaulting to MUH RAPUGEE BAN or THE WALL. Neither of which are racist whatsoever, but completely logical courses of action, which we both know. I see you're already literally shaking with the three year old comment, so I'll let you calm down before you try to compile evidence, but I'm looking forward to it. Good luck.

[Jmustang1968]

America has never been great.

Historically, it's a country that's literally been built on the the continual labor exploitation and forced migration of minorities (Native Americans, African slaves, European & Asian immigrants, Latino immigrants, etc.) and on the systematic political exclusion and persecution of those whose immutable physical traits are seen as threats to those who hold power (women, blacks, gays, arabs, etc.).

It has not been through the ideological power of some great set of noble values that we profess or through some divine blessing that we've earned that we've been able to become a global superpower. It is because we got enormously wealthy by oppressing people in our own country (and across the world), used that wealth to create our economy (and our military, our education, our technology, etc.), and then decided we'd start using our unethically earned position of power to start claiming moral authority and exerting influence accordingly.

Trump is not new. Every time the majority starts to feel angry, apprehensive, or both they start ratcheting up calls to start oppressing more. "Give us our country ill-earned wealth back!" Whether they can recognize it or not, this is the kind of "greatness" Trump's supporters were asking for a return to: a hollow one built on monetizing division, not a noble one built on a principled ideology of equity and freedom. That's probably why, for example, they really didn't give two shits about his personal character, his faith, or any of the rest of that bullshit they pay lip service to when they think things are good.

Thats a very narrow outlook and spin you put on that assessment. Cherry picking some events to fit the argument. I am not saying it is all incorrect or without some truth, but is also leaving a lot of history that wouldn't fit that narrative. This is also a microcosm of human nature, people being people throughout history.

And on monetizing division, I'd say if anything, Democrats are much more guilty of that.

[Sarge]

While I'm all for acknowledging our past sins and improving in the process, I believe that is an astoundingly negative view of this country.

[dsheinem]

Thats a very narrow outlook and spin you put on that assessment.

I think it is a very broad view, actually. It's big picture stuff. I think in the narrow view we see a lot more "good" history and find worthwhile moments that we can hold up as ideals for reforming the whole system, but the "American Experiment" is really, ultimately, just like much of the rest of human history: about 90% people doing horrible shit to one another and about 10% cool ideas for getting along with minimal strife. (Those are bigly scientific numbers, by the way)

This is also a microcosm of human nature, people being people throughout history.

No doubt.

And on monetizing division, I'd say if anything, Democrats are much more guilty of that.

Eh, I am not sure nor do I really care. All political parties do it now and have done it in different ways and at various intensities through time. Deciding who's the bigger asshole doesn't really matter when both will shit all over you either way.

[PartridgeSenpai]

America has never been great.

Historically, it's a country that's literally been built on the the continual labor exploitation and forced migration of minorities (Native Americans, African slaves, European & Asian immigrants, Latino immigrants, etc.) and on the systematic political exclusion and persecution of those whose immutable physical traits are seen as threats to those who hold power (women, blacks, gays, arabs, etc.).

It has not been through the ideological power of some great set of noble values that we profess or through some divine blessing that we've earned that we've been able to become a global superpower. It is because we got enormously wealthy by oppressing people in our own country (and across the world), used that wealth to create our economy (and our military, our education, our technology, etc.), and then decided we'd start using our unethically earned position of power to start claiming moral authority and exerting influence accordingly.

Trump is not new. Every time the majority starts to feel angry, apprehensive, or both they start ratcheting up calls to start oppressing more. "Give us our country ill-earned wealth back!" Whether they can recognize it or not, this is the kind of "greatness" Trump's supporters were asking for a return to: a hollow one built on monetizing division, not a noble one built on a principled ideology of equity and freedom. That's probably why, for example, they really didn't give two shits about his personal character, his faith, or any of the rest of that bullshit they pay lip service to when they think things are good.

That's a very narrow outlook and spin you put on that assessment. Cherry picking some events to fit the argument. I am not saying it is all incorrect or without some truth, but is also leaving a lot of history that wouldn't fit that narrative. This is also a microcosm of human nature, people being people throughout history.

I'd actually agree that that's a fairly fair assessment of American history. Not acknowledging the facts that institutional racism, ruthlessly exploitative capitalism (both of its own citizens and abroad), and geographical seclusion have all been very significant factors in America's rise to power is looking at history with some very rose-tinted glasses.

Sometimes it's easy to look back and say, "Ah, yes, we clearly did X because of democratic principles and because we're spreading them to the rest of the poor world," but things are rarely so simple, in my opinion. Things like Manifest Destiny, which was a really racist, nationalistic policy that prompted a huge war with Mexico to take half of their country's land. Things like the Gilded Age of the 20's, where tons of "self-made men" got hugely wealthy through their own innovations and capitalistic cruelty towards their own workers. Yes, America is "great" in the literal sense, but it's gotten there by riding on the backs of a systematically impoverished working class.

[Sarge]

My point is that while we have our dark moments, we also have people that have worked tirelessly to improve our nation as well. Some have been exploitative, but not all have. As you say, many times, those with power are wont to abuse it. But then we get true statesmen, those that call us to something higher than our base nature as human beings, and we are better for it.

I never want to forget the sins of our past, because they can help us inform the future. But I also do not wish to denigrate those who have fought to steer us to the right course. I believe that we have been a net force for good in the world, and part of that is rooted in learning from our past mistakes.

Dig around, and you'll find darkness and evil in every nation's history. It's a part of the human condition, sadly. The majority of human history is darkness and despair. Still, never has there been a brighter beacon for freedom and hope than the United States.

[Exhuminator]

Still, never has there been a brighter beacon for freedom and hope than the United States.

I'm just glad the USA invented the internet, so its citizens can exercise their right to denigrate their own country online.

[prfsnl_gmr]

I see you're already literally shaking with the three year old comment, so I'll let you calm down before you try to compile evidence, but I'm looking forward to it. Good luck.

1. He disparaged a well-reapected judge because he had a "Mexican sounding" last name.

2. He was the key proponent of the "birther" movement that sought to delegitimize the nation's first African-American president on the grounds that he was born in Africa despite the complete lack of evidence supporting that conclusion (and in the face of clear evidence regarding the President's place of birth).

3. He repeatedly refused to condemn the hate groups actively supporting his campaign.

4. He has been sued, twice, by the justice department for racial discrimination.

5. He has condoned assaults on minority protestors at his conventions.

6. His biographers and employees have accused him of making racist statements.

I am sure that there are other examples, but I this is "all" I could come up with off the top of my head. Also, he is basically the king of misogynists, and I hope that you can understand why some minorities might be concerned about him.

(Also, and FYI, the gloating is a bit much. It is like someone who wins a game a soccer game in a penalty shootout screaming, "We kicked your ass!" over and over again. It comes across as unsportsmanlike and reveals that you are not accustomed to winning.)

EDIT: Just saw that he was banned. Good call on that.

[Blu]

random retarded garbage as usual

Go ahead, I challenge you to point out what Trump has said that is RAYCIS without defaulting to MUH RAPUGEE BAN or THE WALL. Neither of which are racist whatsoever, but completely logical courses of action, which we both know. I see you're already literally shaking with the three year old comment, so I'll let you calm down before you try to compile evidence, but I'm looking forward to it. Good luck.

This isn't /r/The_Donald.

Take your nonconstructive attitude elsewhere, brunoafh. Too bad this post is wasted on you, and you're banned from the forums oblivious to your own homophobic slurs you decided to throw around. Thanks for proving my point through your own inability to control your delicate ego. Good riddance.

How about the notion that he and his pop wouldn't rent to people of color? That good for you? Justice department had to sue him twice.
How about the fact that he questioned President Obama's natural-born citizenship. That good for you? No one bothered to raise that question of Cruz.
Gonzalo Curiel. Read into that one.

Thanks prfsnl_gmr, you had it covered better than I did.

There is a real possibility that the people who voted this man into power will watch as the poorest people in this nation (a large portion of them white) will have their health care coverage stripped (to the tune of tens of millions of Americans), their food assistance cut. Other entitlements will vanish. It's been Paul Ryan's agenda he's waiting to implement. He'll have very few barriers to passing it through both chambers of congress, signed into law by Trump.

His proposals to implement tariffs could cause trade wars, increasing prices on things we've taken for granted. He won't have the ability to pull back the reigns on a global economy and relocate jobs back to the states. His transition team chock-full of lobbyists ensure that he won't have the average American's interests at heart. These are all very real possibilities. The only thing that's sobering is that Republicans recognize they have the power they've been wanting and know that a lot is at stake if they don't figure out to check Trump's ego/impulses. If they don't check him, they risk losing their majorities.

For the rest of you, this echo chamber has been nauseating. If you need any reference on what I mean by how attitudes on homophobia (racism, misogyny, xenophobia, etc) are being normalized and accepted, not denounced, look no further than your former member's, brunoafh, post. Not one person who has reveled in Trump's win has come forth to address that post and let it be known you're not accepting of bigotry. If you're homophobic, chances are there's room for other fear/hatred in your heart. Better start finding some moral courage and your voices and start calling out the very bullshit you claim doesn't exist. Because it's been blowing up all over in very painful ways for people. I won't diminish the pain that you all might have been feeling, but you also need to be able to be multipartial and listen in return.

Here's an article that sums up my sentiment from today: http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/her ... eve-today/

Please open your eyes, these things have been here all along.