Random Thoughts Thread

[Sarge]

Elkin, you've hit on the problem I've always had with quite a few public schools. It's not that the teachers are necessarily bad; sure, there are a few, but many are doing the best they can like the rest of us. No, the problem lies in the administration, the in-built bureaucracy that saps resources from the teachers and students. Heck, there shouldn't be a funding problem, given what we spend, but there are too many higher-ups sponging off the dough.

I'm very conservative, as y'all know, but I feel the best teachers should be rewarded handsomely for their services. I want to see the good teachers paid, the bad ones fired, and the administration that cooks up all these sorts of schemes when we had methods that were educating kids for a fraction of the cost decades ago, with no deleterious effects on them that I can see. I kinda see it like my former supervisor did for the entirety of public service; we need less of them, but pay the best and brightest extremely well for their services.

You're also absolutely right that some kids have different aptitudes, and some don't care at all. We need to do a better job identifying those kids and finding a way to reach them, but that doesn't mean abandoning known teaching styles on account of those that don't give a rip, because they're not going to care no matter what you do!

I think that's the end of my rant; you have my sympathies, Elkin.

[marurun]

when we had methods that were educating kids for a fraction of the cost decades ago, with no deleterious effects on them that I can see.

I agree with a decent number of your points, but not this one. There was a time when more people could get away with not completing high school, or maybe not even making it to high school. That time was also a time when there were more vocational skills taught as part of school. There were also more companies and individuals doing training and journeyman programs. But companies don't want to invest in training any longer. They want pre-packaged employees, ready to work. They also want far more educational qualifications than their positions need, because almost everyone is expected to have those educational qualifications these days. Further still, the modern mode of labor is far different now than it once was. The workforce in the US relies on very different skill sets than it once did. Those cheaper, simpler times also left an awful lot of students behind. Moving backwards in education would leave us with a lot more kids destined for basic fast food and restaurant jobs (because there are simply no decent-paying, unskilled labor options left in the US), and we already have too many folks headed to that fate.

There is, unfortunately, no easy, affordable solution to the education/labor problem in the US that I can see. Every solution requires putting more money into education, broadening educational options for students to include certain trade skills (there are a few that aren't completely dying out, like plumbing, electrical, and carpentry, though there certainly isn't infinite room in those markets, either), and finding ways to impart information literacy, technology literacy, and communication and language skills to those who choose those paths. The best solutions involve businesses, both large and local, getting off their complacent butts and making some investments in training and career programs, but given the current corporate climate in the US, I see that as highly unlikely to happen.

[Sarge]

when we had methods that were educating kids for a fraction of the cost decades ago, with no deleterious effects on them that I can see.

I agree with a decent number of your points, but not this one. There was a time when more people could get away with not completing high school, or maybe not even making it to high school. That time was also a time when there were more vocational skills taught as part of school. There were also more companies and individuals doing training and journeyman programs. But companies don't want to invest in training any longer. They want pre-packaged employees, ready to work. They also want far more educational qualifications than their positions need, because almost everyone is expected to have those educational qualifications these days. Further still, the modern mode of labor is far different now than it once was. The workforce in the US relies on very different skill sets than it once did. Those cheaper, simpler times also left an awful lot of students behind. Moving backwards in education would leave us with a lot more kids destined for basic fast food and restaurant jobs (because there are simply no decent-paying, unskilled labor options left in the US), and we already have too many folks headed to that fate.

There is, unfortunately, no easy, affordable solution to the education/labor problem in the US that I can see. Every solution requires putting more money into education, broadening educational options for students to include certain trade skills (there are a few that aren't completely dying out, like plumbing, electrical, and carpentry, though there certainly isn't infinite room in those markets, either), and finding ways to impart information literacy, technology literacy, and communication and language skills to those who choose those paths. The best solutions involve businesses, both large and local, getting off their complacent butts and making some investments in training and career programs, but given the current corporate climate in the US, I see that as highly unlikely to happen.

There may not be infinite room, but there is a lot. There are jobs that Americans "won't do", partly because they don't pay enough, and partly because businesses import cheap labor to do it.

That companies are short-sighted is certainly an issue, but I think what we have now is a problem where they expect everyone to have a college degree. And too many people think jobs are "beneath them". I think it's worse to be without employment than it is to not take a job because you think you're too good for it.

I also think our school systems, both at the high school and collegiate level, are bad at identifying where kids should focus their talents. I'd love to see trade schools make a comeback, and remove this stigma that exists that if you don't have a college degree, you are somehow incapable or worthless. I know many, many intelligent people that don't have college degrees, and they do quite well for themselves.

I believe there are significant inefficiencies in our education system, systemic failures that will require significant change that goes beyond our usual solution of "throw more money at it".

Short version: I think I agree with some of your points as well, but I suspect we would try to achieve these means in different ways.

[MrPopo]

Yeah, that class of jobs like the trades that don't need a college degree but need more training than high school needs to be emphasized more. I suspect there's a lot of current humanities students in college that would probably be better served spending their time at a trade school or studying to be a CPA, in terms of their job fitness. I'm not knocking humanities as an area of study, but it's not going to really prepare you well for 40 years of work (barring you going on and converting that into an education degree and becoming a teacher).

[Exhuminator]

I know carpenters, masons, painters, etc. All those guys make $30-45 bucks an hour when you average it out. Not bad for having no college degree.

Vocational school really does need to be made more apparent for high school kids.

[Xeogred]

I still want to get an associates at least. I have a few friends that landed some good jobs with two year degrees. But other than that, I don't know anymore. I've landed some solid jobs and can get by well enough for a single dude right now and I'd have a hard time listing a bunch of friends that actually succeeded with college. And I've never been in any dept, so I feel like that's a success story on the flip side compared to others I know.

My dad is a carpenter and has been happily self employed for 15 years now or something. It's not something I have any interest in personally, but it sure does sound great when he's convinced me that working for yourself is so much more fulfilling than working for someone else.

[Ack]

I know a lot of guys who were successful out of college...but they are all engineers, and they now are all either government or defense contractors, or they do software development. Of the folks I know who went the humanities route, the only real success stories I know of were the ones who then went on for advanced degrees. In fact one of my brothers is currently weighing continuing to work in ESL programs in foreign universities or return to the US for a doctoral program. He's leaning towards working in the universities because he doesn't want to go back to being a dirt poor grad student again. It's the same reason why I don't want to go for a doctoral program.

I also know a couple of guys with PhDs...one of which works part-time as a teacher for peanuts while the other is a post-doc in neuroscience for a university and also makes only peanuts. He's got over $100k in debt from school and can't find better than $30k a year because he hasn't been published enough and his work isn't "sexy" enough to bring in grants. That is terrifying to me.

Meanwhile my youngest brother is a maintenance tech for a medical production company, and he's making roughly $25 an hour without any degrees. Plus the company is continuing to teach him various things(forklift certification and hazardous materials training for instance), so he's about to go spend a week in LA for training. He spends much of his time having a laugh at work and telling me how much it reminds him of Half-Life levels. I'm glad he found something he likes.

[ElkinFencer10]

Vocational school really does need to be made more apparent for high school kids.

This all day every day. I didn't know that vocational schools were still a viable option until I was halfway through my undergrad; it's not publicized or talked about at all, at least not in North Carolina. I think from a "generally well rounded population leads to a better informed electorate" point of view that everyone should attend college and get a general education experience, but it's far too cost prohibitive for that in the United States. I urge my kids to consider vocational school and trade apprenticeships. We'll never stop needing mechanics, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. No matter how advanced robotics gets, nothing will ever match the personal touch and attention to detail that a skilled human hand provides (plus a human workforce minimizes the threat of a robot uprising).

[Xeogred]

Do you guys think military time should be an equivalent to a degree on a resume? My dad always argues that. He put in a few years with the Navy but has always been irked about how glossed over it is back in the "real world".

I guess that's a whole different can of worms though.

[o.pwuaioc]

Do you guys think military time should be an equivalent to a degree on a resume? My dad always argues that. He put in a few years with the Navy but has always been irked about how glossed over it is back in the "real world".

I guess that's a whole different can of worms though.

Veteran status is a mandatory question on every job application. I always feel bad having to mark "I am not a veteran."