As an adult player, why did you not "grow out of gaming"?

[Xeogred]

Yeah I'm not saying all fiction TV is junk, not by a mile. I've seen plenty of amazing TV shows. But if you take a look at the most popular programming today, a dragnet approach, the collective bar isn't very high.

So are you just targeting cable and the mainstream media here then? Because I could see that. Watching shows via cable has always felt pretty wasteful to me. But I think something like Netflix, downloading, or owning a series and going through it commercial free has a completely different vibe and experience that doesn't feel so bad.

On the topic I don't think I have much to add other than I know we've agreed plenty on this subject and similar stuff. To "grow up" would be a life not worth living to me. I went to a very nerdy high school that had a crap football team, but offered game design. So you can imagine the demograph. I've remained in touch with a dozen or so people since then and most of the people I surround myself with are gamers to an extent. But there's definitely a trend I've noticed with people becoming more narrow minded with age, almost like they're going out of their way to limit themselves and their interests or hobbies. I have a group of friends that likes going to the movies a lot even though they go into them 90% of the time complaining and expecting bad. I cannot even comprehend the thought process behind that. Why would I actively spend money on something that I think looks bad? I don't get it. So I basically almost never go, because I've never cared for movies at the theater outside of maybe a few times a year.

One friend I tried to reconnect with recently didn't really work out and it just might have to do with our divide with hobbies and not being able to connect much. His extent of gaming in 2016 would be The Division and Pokemon Go. So there's just no way I can relate to that. My roommate has a similar situation with one of his friends, who acts like he's the almighty gamer who knows everything, but the thing he got most excited for at E3 was the Skyrim remaster. He's most excited for a remaster of an old game. The dude seems to only play Skyrim, GTA, and maybe one or two other games, and never beats others.

I've been gaming since I was 3 and have never once stopped or burned out. Everything in moderation. But I love gaming. Why would I ever stop? Makes no sense to me.

The thought of having my own apartment and perhaps house someday got me thinking about how older generations had their own man caves, maybe some garage full of mechanical stuff, or electronics, or some people that collect movies like one set of my grandparents did. Or books. Or something silly like trading cards? For me all that love and primary focus has always been gaming. My collecting and gaming habits are going to stay with me until the end.

Also I have a few gaming posters (nicely framed) out in the living room for some decor. I remember one guy we had over here once threw the cliche' question at me, like what if some girls came over? I just kind of laughed and he is a few years younger and still needs to evolve I guess haha. I don't give a shit was basically my answer. I'm not changing myself or throwing out my hobbies for anyone.

I hope that all doesn't make it sound like I'M the narrow minded arrogant one. But people have always told me I'm really personable. I've befriended just about any kind of person you could think of and fit in with groups even I'd never expect, like when I worked at a car shop for a few years it was just pure bros if we're being goofy and generalizing. But I'm not one to judge. I could take a spin on this subject in so many other directions, like with religion or something (ie like all my "Christian" friends aren't Christian anymore). I'm always growing and learning about the world and myself, but people that seem to follow trends or forget about their past interests at the flip of a dime, I just don't get that.

I think a large majority of adults have weird issues with an identity crisis.

[Exhuminator]

I like fishing, football, barbecues, and games. These aren't exclusive.

I wasn't saying they are exclusive, I was saying they are some of the common male pastime preferences where I live. But I know people who love fishing and football, but would look down on someone who preferred to play fishing and football video games instead.

[ElkinFencer10]

I like fishing, football, barbecues, and games. These aren't exclusive.

I wasn't saying they are exclusive, I was saying they are some of the common male pastime preferences where I live. But I know people who love fishing and football, but would look down on someone who preferred to play fishing and football video games instead.

Yeah, if you ask someone random "What's the typical hobby of a 30+ year old man in the South?" I promise you that not a single one is going to say "Playing video games."

[dsheinem]

I've written a little bit about this, here's a little from an initial draft of the conclusion in the book I put out last year:

Video games are relatively unique amongst other contemporary media forms in that they had a prolonged period of time, early in their existence, where they were primarily marketed to male children and young male teens. As such, there was a solid decade or more of advertisements that emphasized fuzzy mascots, independence from parents and teachers, and all the trappings of male pubescence. Though games begun to gain more traction with adults and the larger public towards the end of the 20th and early 21st Century, this image persisted then and to a large extent still persists today for a number of reasons, some of which can be controlled and some of which can’t.

Video games are often thought of as something that “wastes time” or “takes away” from an engagement with more pressing and more important social, political, or cultural issues. They are often blamed for the decline of “real men” in the popular press, (Hingston, 2012) are seen as youthful pursuits and “non-serious” media (unlike film and literature), and are often thought of as lesser than their peers. Kirkpatrick (2013) has suggested that “as computer gaming culture has grown in confidence and become more mainstream, it has still not managed to secure complete confidence in its own legitimacy as a “pastime” with intrinsic value…there is still a question mark over the activity. (Kirpatrick, 2014: 186-187)

There are several ways to think about the issue of respectability. In the industry, this problem often haunts people at the level of their career choice (why did you go into video games if you are so smart and talented? Do you just want to play games all day?), at their level of professional and popular recognition (how many game writers, directors, voice actors, composers, and other artists are known to the public compared to those in film and television?), and at the level of salary compared to other tech and entertainment fields. All of this criticism comes despite the industry being very competitive financially and having a very large cultural impact globally.

In gamer culture, respectability is wrapped up with all the trappings of the “nerd” and “geek “designation – there’s still a strong sense that interest in video games (especially beyond the newest Madden or Call of Duty titles) signals unattractiveness, obsessiveness, poor hygiene, and social awkwardness. Even though people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are held up as “nerds par excellance,” the number one comedy in America (The Big Bang Theory) succeeds in getting its yuks by making fun of people who can explain the best strategies for reaching a level cap quickly in the newest Blizzard game.

I think that explains, in brief, something about the social stigmas that push people away from gaming.

As to why I haven't "grown out" of it...it is probably because I chose a profession and have chosen friends that value self-expression, independence, and being true to one's self - so I don't have the "peer pressure" to do more traditional things. I also think, in the circles I travel, well-roundedness is valued. So, by association, I tend to think that the guys who are only into outdoor activities, only into sports, only in to traditional/socially "acceptable" pastimes, etc. are truly missing out on the wonderful variation of experiences that are available to us in life. That critique also applies to people who are really only into video games, too, of course.

[Key-Glyph]

First of all, marketing is overwhelmingly responsible for creating the widespread association between children/adolescents and video games. There is no intrinsic reason why video games should appeal more to children than adults, but as the years went by, home consoles wanted everyone -- children and adults -- to buy into that story. Pushing video games as a demographic identity was brilliant, because it created an emotional investment in all parties: kids were extra motivated to know about and play video games because it was something they "got" and lame grown-ups didn't, and adults absorbed the same advertisements and chose to see themselves not as out-of-touch squares but as necessary authoritarians and the only sane man in the room. This is how brand loyalty/antagonism is built, and is the same phenomenon that makes people so fervently dedicated to their chosen sports teams, favorite fictional character pairings, stores, bands, etc. It makes the choices personal.

I just looked up some compilations of commercials, which of course aren't scientific samples, but you'll notice a few patterns (spoilered for length):

Atari Compilation: There are several commercials here that actually feature adults playing games in non-ironic ways, and even an entire mixed-gender family sitting down together, which is amazing to me as someone who grew up in the 90s and cannot remember ever seeing such a thing on TV. You'll definitely see children in these commercials, and even one or two where the age dynamic specifically comes into play (04:51: "Boys, clean you room!"), but there's a least a mixture here.

NES Compilation: These definitely push video games as an edgier, cooler thing to do, and as something that either needs to be hidden from an unsuspecting boring family (04:32, complete with needlepoint) or forced upon an innocent one (03:36, complete with pig-tailed sister). Note that in the latter example, the commercial's narrative isn't about the boys saving their family from trouble, but rather that they are both the cause of the trouble and then incredibly dismissive about it, because whatever! Moms again, amirite?

Genesis Compilation: Yeah, it's going to come as no surprise that SEGA was pushing this message the hardest. From embarrassing adult salesmen trying to push the SNES over the cooler Genesis (00:07), the ridiculous do-gooder librarian/principal type scolding Sonic for his attitude (01:08), teenagers stuck in a dystopian adult-run future of COLORLESS HANDHELD GAMING!! (03:48, Game Gear "separates the men from the boys"), and aliens literally shape-shifting into your family members to ambush you (06:48), this narrative was huge for them. What I found surprising about this compilation, though, was how often Sega pushed the idea of "being cooler than your peers" by pitting children against children. Sometimes it's the stereotyped chunky nerds who are into Nintendo (03:22), and sometimes YOU are the nerd who gets back at your bullies via Blast Processing (02:52). Sega didn't care which side you were on; they just wanted to make sure you understood their product was the liquid cool necessary for saving or sustaining your reputation.

Another surprising thing is that this Us vs. Them mentality seems to be only a Sega of America thing, so far as these commercials are concerned. Is there more of an association between video games and children in North American than, say, Japan?

If we accept that the video games = kid stuff equation was largely fabricated by media, I think it's easy to conclude that the concept of "growing out of" video games was never based on anything real. Adults bought the message that "games were for kids," and since those adults were largely of the Baby Boomer generation, they simply concluded that it was childhood stuff to be left behind because they themselves had left their childhood stuff behind. Generations younger than Baby Boomers are not seeing their lives in this same way, as a coming-of-age story that requires the deliberate abandonment of things they happened to like when they were younger in order to prove their maturity.

And of course, the fact that there is such a huge market of "mature" video games aimed at today's adults only supports this theory. We kept growing and kept playing, so now companies are scrambling to react to this and abandon their established narrative that video games are primarily for children. But for many who saw the commercials in the 90s and were the Only Sane Man, they will never drop the association and will therefore conclude that gamers are immature folks who missed a developmental milestone.

That said, I have never been made to feel that I should be growing out of gaming or am immature for doing it. I've occasionally been made to feel abnormal that I'm a woman who games, though, which is a similar thing -- it's just not relegated to a specific envelope of time in my life.

I'm sorry that this post is so long, but I did want to point out three more quick things:

1) I'd be willing to put money on the theory that many adults gamers who feel they are being scorned for their hobby would hypocritically argue that games which are huge sensations outside of their demographic -- casual gaming, mobile gaming, etc. -- are "not real games." Video gaming isn't weird anymore, but certain people insist on maintaining arbitrary, self-imposed borders for the sake of an identity narrative, just like the commercials of old.

2) For what it's worth, the only gaming advertisement I can remember that included adults in an inclusive way was the commercial in which a group of mall punks and senior citizens bonded over how amazing the Game Boy Pocket was (but not before making fun of the old people first and last, of course).

3) Was that was Robert Sean Leonard in the Atari Solar Fox commercial?

EDIT: Ninja'd by the professor!

[J T]

A few months ago I went to see a stand-up set by comedian Michael Che (SNL Weekend Update). During a moment of riffing with the crowd, he started talking about a guy in his 30s standing next to me who was wearing a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles hat. Che talked about how its kind of weird, but also kind of cool, that a grown man can wear a hat with his favorite childhood cartoon on it, and that this is fairly common today. He talked about how his father's generation would have no tolerance for that. His dad was a hard working, blue collar man. His dad was a serious dude and Che was led to believe that growing up meant that you had to wear some sort of uniform and carry a big grip of keys. He could never imagine his dad wearing something like a Bugs Bunny T-shirt or a Foghorn Leghorn hat. But men in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s are different now.

He said it funnier than me, but the point was an interesting one to me. Gen X and the millenials are kind of a Peter Pan generation that never fully has to grow up their personal interests. While I agree that there is some push to "grow up", I think there are also plenty examples of celebration of things usually considered "childish". Comic book movies are some of the biggest blockbusters. ComicCons draw ridiculously large crowds of adults. Mobile games are pervasive. The videogame industry is billions of dollars huger than it ever was before.

So why did I keep gaming? The short and easy answer is: I enjoy it.

[dsheinem]

EDIT: Ninja'd by the professor!

True, but you made your point with a lot more detail and nuance! I enjoyed reading it (and JT's related last post, too).

I've also written a bit about how the "respectability thing" around games has consequences for people who have careers around games such as folks in the games industry that I mentioned above and people like me who teach and write about games for an academic audience. If anyone is interested in more of my take on the latter, especially, shoot me a PM and I can send you the full version of this piece I wrote a while back that tries to tackle some of these issues (the link is behind a paywall)

[Exhuminator]

Well now, Dsh, Key, and JT all dropped some high quality posts, great stuff folks.

So, by association, I tend to think that the guys who are only into outdoor activities, only into sports, only in to traditional/socially "acceptable" pastimes, etc. are truly missing out on the wonderful variation of experiences that are available to us in life. That critique also applies to people who are really only into video games, too, of course.

This is so true. There used to be a guy I worked with who was literally only able to talk about two things; comic book movies or Xbox video gaming. I mean, that was IT. Trying to get him to talk about anything else was an exercise in absolute futility. This guy was in his mid-30's, so you'd think he'd have some expanded interests beyond those things, but nope.

"advertisements reinforced the concept"

I absolutely agree that the 80's TV video game ads pushed hard that gaming was for kids, and then the 90's pushed hard that video games were for teens. I don't know what happened in the 00's, as far as TV video gaming advertisement is concerned, as I stopped watching everyday TV around 1999. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why advertising went this way, but hopefully post-gaming generations will not be affected by that old stigma. Like perhaps my daughter's generation will never have the stigma about gaming that mine has. A few years ago I wrote about this concept in a blog:

https://ardentexhuminator.blogspot.com/ ... unted.html

I'm not sure if I'd agree with everything I wrote then now, but I'm totally on board with the media slanting gaming in the eyes of the public theory.

[Key-Glyph]

Wait a second. I know this might not be news to you guys, but does the growing-out-of-video-games idea stem entirely from the concept of getting a girl?

I remember one guy we had over here once threw the cliche' question at me, like what if some girls came over?

This is not the first time I've heard this. So here's the equation I now see:

• Marketers frame video games as a male adolescent thing that is disliked by girls, adults, and especially moms; then
  society puts tremendous pressure on boys to become "responsible" manly men, with
  the ultimate achievement of the responsible man being getting a girl -- but
  since it's been established that all adult women, starting with moms, dislike video games,
  it is believed boys will have to ditch the hobby if they want to settle down with a woman and thus become a man.

Right? I mean, this is explains why gaming as a woman is considered a quirk and not a destiny-hobbling fault. This could explain why I was not pressured to grow out of gaming (or at least was able to remain oblivious to such pressure); it was never assumed that I was going to have to impress a lady later on in life.

If this is true, then a huge chunk of the damage and stigma behind video gaming seems to rest squarely on the assumption that women and girls don't game (and that they will also try to sabotage your gaming in one way or another)... which was an essential part of gaming's marketing message for at least a decade.

Woah.

[dsheinem]

If this is true, then a huge chunk of the damage and stigma behind video gaming seems to rest squarely on the assumption that women and girls don't game (and that they will also try to sabotage your gaming in one way or another)... which was an essential part of gaming's marketing message for at least a decade.

Woah.

I actually think that Nintendo is primarily to blame for this since they chose to reintroduce games in the US post-crash as toys instead of as electronics. That's why ROB was so emphasized in the early NES ads, for example.

And how are toys marketed? Some toys are for boys, some toys are for girls, and the advertisers have well worn tropes (such as those used to sell games) that they can (and did) use for each.

I think it is noteworthy that the older ads (pre-crash) focused on gaming as a family activity that was fairly gender/age blind. Marketing games as toys (which was smart, in many ways) had the added effect of gendering them and linking them with children...the irony is now that many companies (and, arguably, especially Nintendo) have been trying to fight back against that for at least the past fifteen years or so now to broaden their market share...