Historical hallmarks of the JRPG genre

[BoneSnapDeez]

Thoughts on...
Fatal Labyrinth
or perhaps
Shiren the Wanderer

?

And some newer ones...
Grandia
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Skies of Arcadia

?

[Sarge]

I think both Shiren and Fatal Labyrinth are considered rogue-likes, which would count as a WRPG. (Actually, Diablo owes a fair amount to Rogue as well.)

I don't think Grandia is big enough to count. And as fun as I found it, there aren't a whole lot of folks that still even remember it. I'm also not entirely sure how many other games it necessarily inspired. You might could include it because of its innovative battle system, but I'll have to mull that over more.

As for Panzer Dragoon Saga, I'm on the record as totally loving that game. But it's very much a one-off, one of those isolated pockets of awesome that really hasn't been duplicated. As a must-play, it certainly warrants consideration, but as a historical item, not as much.

Skies of Arcadia is a little trickier. It's a good, solid RPG, but it really does very little to advance the genre. Even back in the day, I saw it described as a game that executed the JRPG formula extremely well, but I also feel it wasn't actually spectacular in any one area, either. It's the very definition of a game that is more than the sum of its parts, a game that's well above average in every area but doesn't really excel, either; that is both a strength and a weakness.

[Xeogred]

The thing about Panzer Dragoon Saga is that it's extremely inaccessible unless you happen to have a few gold bricks laying around.

[BoneSnapDeez]

I think both Shiren and Fatal Labyrinth are considered rogue-likes, which would count as a WRPG. (Actually, Diablo owes a fair amount to Rogue as well.)

Well by this measure games like The Dragon & Princess and The Black Onyx would also be "WRPGs" for sure.

My picks are games that were developed in Japan, even if their inspiration is explicitly Western. Technically we can follow the path of any Japanese RPG back to WRPGs. Heck, even action-RPGs began in the West with stuff like Dungeons of Daggorath.

In any event, I think the Japanese roguelike scene is big enough to qualify an early one for a list like this. Shiren, I'm thinking now, may be the best one as it led to the development of a larger series (in fact, it is technically the second game in said series but the first to feature the original Shiren mascot character).

Good points on the other games.

I'm thinking that perhaps multiple games need to occupy the same "slot" as seen on something like this. Ys I and Ys II are always lumped together as well.

This is a fun thread haha.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I guess I'm using a very different metric for the term. I'm not considering Japanese development only.

[Exhuminator]

Fatal Labyrinth

I believe this was the first console roguelike? However, in Japan, the first roguelike to really kick off the popularity of the concept was Torneko no Daibōken: Fushigi no Dungeon. It was far more popular than Fatal Labyrinth, and also Fatal Labyrinth didn't exactly invent the idea of a graphical roguelike either. So Torneko gets my vote as the hallmark. Shiren the Wanderer came later as well, and rode on the success of earlier Mystery Dungeon games.

As for these...

>Grandia
What did it do differently to make it a unique hallmark as opposed to just another well reviewed JRPG?

>Panzer Dragoon Saga
Too obscure and unattainable (even for its time) to be considered a universal hallmark. I honestly believe this game is rated highly due its scarcity and idiosyncrasy more than actual quality.

>Skies of Arcadia
I totally loved the Game Cube version of this. But it falls under the same question I asked about Grandia.

As for Wizardry, the only way I can see it fitting on a JRPG hallmarks list, is if we include a Wizardry which was developed in Japan for Japan. There are a few of those.

[Sarge]

>Panzer Dragoon Saga
Too obscure and unattainable (even for its time) to be considered a universal hallmark. I honestly believe this game is rated highly due its scarcity and idiosyncrasy more than actual quality.

You... you shut your mouth!

(Yes, I really like the game, but it's certainly not perfect. That underground ruins section drags, the draw distances can impair exploration a bit, and it's actually a bit easy if played skillfully.)

[BoneSnapDeez]

Thing about games like Chrono Trigger and (to a much lesser extent) Skies of Arcadia...

Even though they may not be super mechanically or aesthetically inventive is the fact that they're AWESOME enough to make them hallmarks of the genre? Surely Chrono Trigger - which proudly apes Final Fantasy IV - inspired quite a bit future JRPG development.

If we get down to the nitty-gritty and only examine games that had a very distinct mechanic we may run out of stuff before #25 (or was it 26? haha) is hit.

Fatal Labyrinth

I believe this was the first console roguelike? However, in Japan, the first roguelike to really kick off the popularity of the concept was Torneko no Daibōken: Fushigi no Dungeon. It was far more popular than Fatal Labyrinth, and also Fatal Labyrinth didn't exactly invent the idea of a graphical roguelike either. So Torneko gets my vote as the hallmark. Shiren the Wanderer came later as well, and rode on the success of earlier Mystery Dungeon games.

Oh I may have been unclear here by calling it Shiren the Wanderer. I was referring to the original version - this game - not the remake. It's the second in the series, much better than Torneko no Daibouken, and really helped establish the Japanese roguelike genre.

[strangenova]

Just my two cent, but chrono trigger is fantastic and certainly belongs on any best jrpg or snes list but it's not really a "historical hallmark" in my mind.

When I think of hallmarks, I think of the games that brought the genre into fruition and the ones that changed the game entirely. Like the first srpg or arpg. Chrono trigger stands as one of the finest examples of a jrpg but it didn't start things, or change things. It takes more than a good narrative and refined mechanics to be a historic hallmark in my eyes.

[prfsnl_gmr]

Thoughts on...
Fatal Labyrinth
or perhaps
Shiren the Wanderer

Torneko's Mystery Dungeon predates Shiren the Wanderer; so, I would go with that. (Fatal Dungeon predates both, but it kind of sucks and shouldn't be on the list. )