Historical hallmarks of the JRPG genre

[Exhuminator]

Thing is, as also I mentioned, PSO has roots in Diablo

There are some gameplay similarities yes. But Diablo was not sci-fi, did not have massive simultaneous multiplayer online capability, or online chat rooms, or use innovative communication means like Symbol Chat and Word Select, nor have a dedicated PvP battle mode. Nor was the original Diablo a 3D console game, with a moving third person camera, and designed for gamepad controls. It seems like you are trying to knock PSO's accomplishments by reducing it to "Diablo clone", when the reality is PSO is a very different game than Diablo overall.

and subsequent titles using similar online/etc models like Guild Wars or Borderlands don't exactly get pinned as JRPGs either. Had the same game been made with different style art assets, would it be included?

I don't much care for theoretical possibilities in this case. The fact is Phantasy Star Online was a Japanese developed RPG, making it pertinent as a JRPG. It was also the first successful console based MMORPG. Thus a hallmark JRPG.

[marurun]

I think Wizardry needs to be on the list. It was a western CRPG, but it was inspiration for so many JRPGs and was adopted by Japanese developers with many JPN-only sequels.

[Ack]

I think Wizardry needs to be on the list. It was a western CRPG, but it was inspiration for so many JRPGs and was adopted by Japanese developers with many JPN-only sequels.

Then should we also include Ultima III, since its means of handling the party system was a big influence on later JRPG party design?

[Sarge]

I was going to say, one could certainly level the Diablo claim at PSO, and it would stick to some degree. But it also feels significantly different from Diablo, despite the loot-run nature of the game. I can see cases for and against, but it feels more JRPG to me than not.

Valid point on Xenoblade, which is why I wonder if it's worth including or not. While its combat system is very much rooted in MMORPG conventions (buffs, ability cooldowns, etc), it plays out the rest of the way like an RPG, and many reviews claimed at the time that it revolutionized JRPGs. I don't think that's necessarily the case, but I certainly wanted to bring it into the conversation. I'm very much riding the fence on its inclusion/exclusion, and perhaps I give it more weight than it necessarily deserves.

(Furthermore, Final Fantasy XII also has somewhat similar combat, although it's a bit slower-paced.)

[BoneSnapDeez]

I think Wizardry needs to be on the list. It was a western CRPG, but it was inspiration for so many JRPGs and was adopted by Japanese developers with many JPN-only sequels.

I get the "Gaiden" connection and so forth, but this is still a bit of a slippery slope, no?

If Wizardry needs to be on the list must we also include Ultima, Rogue, Temple of Apshai and so forth?

I think it should strictly be games developed in Japan. I think everyone knows that JRPGs were influenced by WRPGs.

[Exhuminator]

I think it should strictly be games developed in Japan. I think everyone knows that JRPGs were influenced by WRPGs.

Exactly. It seems a bit disingenuous to include western developed games into a list of Japanese developed games.

[isiolia]

It seems like you are trying to knock PSO's accomplishments by reducing it to "Diablo clone", when the reality is PSO is a very different game than Diablo overall.

I just get used to referring to it that way in reference to how the online play is structured. It's not what would typically be considered an MMO, as the only "massive" parts of it are effectively the lobby. So some might call it that on those merits, others - including Arenanet in reference to Guild Wars, which uses a similar structure - take care to differentiate, and would call it a co-op RPG.

I'm not trying to knock PSO's accomplishments, but I do have a knee-jerk response to it being called an MMO.

I don't much care for theoretical possibilities in this case. The fact is Phantasy Star Online was a Japanese developed RPG, making it pertinent as a JRPG. It was also the first successful console based MMORPG. Thus a hallmark JRPG.

Well, that'd go back to the what makes it count debate. Simply having Japanese origin makes a lot of things a "JRPG". So, I think it depends. It was significant either way, but would you put it in the same room as FFVI or Chrono Trigger? I dunno.

[Exhuminator]

I just found an eerily relevant quote that encapsulates our conversation very well:

"PSO was, in short, the console space's first brush with the MMO -- massively multiplayer online games. While its design wasn't particularly massive, it was multiplayer and online, and it paved the way for larger-scale efforts such as Final Fantasy XI. More significantly, it established a template that would be copied and perfected by Capcom's Monster Hunter series. Monster Hunter's portable success overseas has in turn influenced every major Japanese RPG franchise from Dragon Quest to Final Fantasy to some degree, along with giving birth to an entire pantheon of multiplayer dungeon crawlers that continue to dominate the Japanese sales charts.

PSO's design wasn't entirely original. Its loot-driven cooperative action owed a tremendous debt to Blizzard's Diablo series. What Sega's Sonic Team accomplished with PSO, though, was a reinvention of an established PC adventure concept into something perfectly suited for the tastes and demands of console gamers. More importantly, it made both online gaming and the concept of fee-based services a reality for consoles. Sega didn't remain in the hardware business for much longer, and they never fully reaped the benefits of the seeds planted with PSO. Nevertheless, the game's legacy lives on for everyone who's ever taken their Xbox 360, PS3, or Wii online to team up with (or simply blow up) a friend."

That's from an old 1UP article written by Jeremy Parish:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.off ... Id=3178082

For once I agree with everything Parish said. This is a red letter day.

[marurun]

PSO absolutely belongs on the list. It was a first, and firsts are historically important.

I think it should strictly be games developed in Japan. I think everyone knows that JRPGs were influenced by WRPGs.

Exactly. It seems a bit disingenuous to include western developed games into a list of Japanese developed games.

I think it can be valuable to know which western RPGs were most instrumental in helping craft the genre, and in this case I think Wizardry applies because in a lot of ways Japan adopted Wizardry, to a degree few, if any, other western RPGs were. That said, I envisioned this thread being a place where people put up their own takes on this challenge. I can respect the approach of not including any western RPGs, but I don't necessarily agree. I think my list will have Wizardry, because of how Sir-Tech software reached out to Japan and engaged Japanese publishers. Heck, Robert Woodhead married his Japanese translator (I think that's how they met).

[Sarge]

I think you can certainly argue that Wizardry inspired the early JRPGs (because it did!), but it certainly didn't birth it, which is why I would hesitate to include it on any of my lists. It would certainly deserve special mention, though.