Gamers who harass women are literally losers

[Exhuminator]

This highlights a clear lack of knowledge of what feminism actually is.

It's not just equal opportunity.

It's not just equal pay.

It's not just equal representation.

It's not just reproductive rights.

It's also about not being judged for choosing one opportunity over the other.

It's also about not being criticized for your likes or dislikes just because of your gender.

It's also about not being disregarded when something they experience (like harassment) doesn't match what you've seen and/or done.

It's also about not being labeled a bitch just because you walked into a room without a radiant smile on your face, when people would look at the same expression on a man and not think a thing about it.

It's about not being judged for your looks, but also not being judged because how you choose to look.

But more importantly, it's about wanting these things, and all rights, equally for all genders.

Slow down there chief. The only thing my comment about her over-usage of makeup has any pertinence to in the above quote, is what I bolded. I never said feminism didn't account for any of the other things you mentioned. Here's the simple: In some of her videos Anita says women should not be seen as artificial pretty objects in video games, but then she goes out of her way to artificially enhance her own looks to appear more pretty on camera. I find that aspect to be highly hypocritical. If you, or some other guy who mentioned what I said, find me to be wrong about her, fair enough. Nobody is going to change their mind about a topic we've been debating for years now.

To focus on the more progressive part of this thread's conversation, I totally agree with what Key had to say earlier about sour grapes boy players. Well written piece. I am on-board with curbing that sort of bad male gamer behavior. Sometimes my wife and/or daughter kick my ass in fighting/shooty games and I am always happy when they do.

[dsheinem]

Learn something: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_feminism

[Exhuminator]

From your own link:

"Other feminists object that the so-called empowerment of lipstick feminism is a philosophic contradiction wherein a woman chooses to sexually objectify herself, and so ceases to be her own woman, in control neither of her self nor of her person."

I'll continue to side with those "other feminists", and maintain that a certain someone is a hypocrite.

[dsheinem]

From your own link:

"Other feminists object that the so-called empowerment of lipstick feminism is a philosophic contradiction wherein a woman chooses to sexually objectify herself, and so ceases to be her own woman, in control neither of her self nor of her person."

So I'll continue to side with those "other feminists", and still find a certain someone to be a hypocrite.

That's fine, but you clearly weren't working from a framework where you could understand why she may be making the self-presentation choices she does and still not be considered a hypocrite. The "makeup is a tool of the patriarchy" camp of this "debate" by the way is pretty much dead and gone, and most feminists are able to (OMG!) reconcile looking good and fighting for equality.

[Erik_Twice]

This result could be interpreted to mean different things, but it seems that they run their mouths when they think the girls can't hurt them, but if they are getting their ass handed to them by a girl, then they suddenly clam up and don't want to draw attention to the fact. When playing with other guys though, they start mouthing off when they lose, probably by making excuses and trying to insult the guy that just knocked them on their ass in-game.

I think the underlying logic is the same: They do it when they can. It's simply that when they can mouth of a woman and a man is different.

I think the interesting point of comparison would be with gay or black people which I think will show similar behaviours despite the stereotypes being different.

[Exhuminator]

That's fine, but you clearly weren't working from a framework where you could understand why she may be making the self-presentation choices she does and still not be considered a hypocrite.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you refuse to consider my point of view, simply because it conflicts with your own.

The "makeup is a tool of the patriarchy" camp of this "debate" by the way is pretty much dead and gone, and most feminists are able to (OMG!) reconcile looking good and fighting for equality.

Well, I think you're making some significant generalizations there, but it's your opinion, so fair enough. Now I could counter all this with my own arguments with sources, and explain why I think you're wrong. You of course would not agree, and all we'd ultimately succeed in doing, is further derailing this poor thread. All while totally failing to convince the other that either is incorrect, because we are both supremely stubborn individuals. The clear crux here is you and I have different interpretations of what feminism should be.

So let's just skip the further arguing part and agree to disagree.

Thread; please continue on original course of intent.

[Michi]

...lipstick feminism counter-proposes that the practice of sexual allure is a form of social power in the interpersonal relations between a man and a woman, which may occur in the realms of cultural, social, and gender equality.

Please don't just cherry-pick the parts that support your argument while conveniently skipping the rest. Just because you don't agree with someone make that person a hypocrite, especially if they're not living up to the skewed, arbitrary standards you've set for them based upon your own misinterpretation of a social movement. Feminism encompasses a range of ideas, not just the narrow sub-set some have erroneously engraved in their mind.

[Exhuminator]

Feminism encompasses a range of ideas, not just the narrow sub-set some have erroneously engraved in their mind.

Yes a large range of ideas, ideas that I never said feminism did not encompass, but rather you wrongly chose to assume that I did.

So let me make it crystal clear for you and Dave. I am not attacking feminism. I don't think feminism is evil. There is one aspect of feminism concerning female beauty, that I feel differently about, that you and Dave do not agree with my interpretation of. That's all there is to it. And we're allowed to not agree, it's okay, really.

If we need to have a specific thread to discuss feminism as it relates to gaming, I'm fine with that. But for now, I'm ready to move on with this thread's original intent, so let's do that guys, please.

[ejamer]

No! We must all agree or else someone is WRONG! Varying interpretations will not be tolerated.


I sort of side with Exhuminator. Although I have no problem with Anita's appearance or how she chooses to present herself in videos, it seemed to me that if you believe women can look good and fight for equality at the same time then it's odd to pick on the appearance of strong female leads in some games.

(Fuzzy line here: female characters in games are fictional and often created by males, so the "choice" of how they look and present themselves often boils down to how males want to see them instead of any female choice or voice... so Anita's points aren't wrong and are still worth discussing, but I think sometimes she paints only one side to prompt discussion instead of giving a well rounded view.)

Funny how little of this stuff is simple, cut-and-dried answers - isn't it?
Aside from the "gamers who harass others are losers". That we seem to have a pretty solid agreement on.

[Tanooki]

From your own link:

"Other feminists object that the so-called empowerment of lipstick feminism is a philosophic contradiction wherein a woman chooses to sexually objectify herself, and so ceases to be her own woman, in control neither of her self nor of her person."

I'll continue to side with those "other feminists", and maintain that a certain someone is a hypocrite.

It's going in circles, you do or you don't, some feminist in your own camp is going to hate your ass for being a traitor. Kind of makes you wonder a bit more about it in general.

It's a dumb argument. Pretty yourself up and you cease to be your own woman in control, but going bland (and ugly?) isn't the same thing? You're not being in any added control going that route as you're still doing something you'd probably rather not to make a point just as those doing the primping are. Either side of that taking a shot at the other are full of shit hypocrites.