World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[jp1]

That's a good point. I didn't mean to imply he wasn't making a valid point of his own.

I'm only saying that in my experience the number of atheists or believers of something other than Christianity is on the rise. I don't feel as though Christianity is the majority that it is represented to be. Assumptions about it, I concede are a different matter.

I didn't really think Popo was relating on a personal (intimate) level with that post.

Apologies Popo.

Aw, jp, it's all good. I wasn't responding to anyone directly, I just generally feared that Popo's observation was getting lost in the shuffle.

No, I'm afraid you were right. It was dismissed, not intentionally...but it happened anyway. I'm glad you pointed it out. Feel free if you catch me slipping like that at any time to make note.

Ironically it helped validate his point even more. So, I guess in addition to the apology I should say "You're welcome". Just kidding.

[jp1]

Ha, now I'm subject to the curse of text not conveying my thoughts properly.

No, I can't judge someone's salvation. That's between them and God. However, I know many people that believe they are saved for reasons such as, "my family goes to church", or "I'm a good person", or something similar. None of those actually make one a "Christian", nor do they confer salvation.

Furthermore, we are called to inspect the fruits of fellow believers, so I always at least attempt to evaluate whether a fellow believer is living the life they say they are trying to. It's possible they are just "backslid", as all of us (especially myself) do from time to time. But it's also possible that they haven't actually accepted Christ as their Savior, and that's something that needs to be addressed if they claim to be Christian!

Sorry Sarge, I just can't get on base with you here. We have a different outlook, and I think a different idea of what it is to be a Christian. That isn't to say you aren't entitled to your own interpretation, but if you (or anyone) would assume that I am not a true Christian because I support gay rights, or other more liberal ideals simply because our interpretations of the Bible differ...I can't respect that.

I also feel it is not our business to judge who is the most Christian, or who qualifies based on their lifestyle or what we know from outside observation. You can't know what is in someone's heart unless they open it to you friend. I'm sorry to take issue on that, but I feel rather strongly about that particular issue. I don't mean to vilify you.

[Ack]

Jp1, Sarge, it's also possible you're different kinds of Christians. Pray tell, what denominations are you guys?

[Sarge]

Ha, now I'm subject to the curse of text not conveying my thoughts properly.

No, I can't judge someone's salvation. That's between them and God. However, I know many people that believe they are saved for reasons such as, "my family goes to church", or "I'm a good person", or something similar. None of those actually make one a "Christian", nor do they confer salvation.

Furthermore, we are called to inspect the fruits of fellow believers, so I always at least attempt to evaluate whether a fellow believer is living the life they say they are trying to. It's possible they are just "backslid", as all of us (especially myself) do from time to time. But it's also possible that they haven't actually accepted Christ as their Savior, and that's something that needs to be addressed if they claim to be Christian!

Sorry Sarge, I just can't get on base with you here. We have a different outlook, and I think a different idea of what it is to be a Christian. That isn't to say you aren't entitled to your own interpretation, but if you (or anyone) would assume that I am not a true Christian because I support gay rights, or other more liberal ideals simply because our interpretations of the Bible differ...I can't respect that.

I also feel it is not our business to judge who is the most Christian, or who qualifies based on their lifestyle or what we know from outside observation. You can't know what is in someone's heart unless they open it to you friend. I'm sorry to take issue on that, but I feel rather strongly about that particular issue. I don't mean to vilify you.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm obviously not quite talking about the same thing, I suppose, or coming from a different angle.

I feel "true" Christians can be wrong on a lot of things. I know, theologically, I'm probably wrong on quite a few things. I'm more speaking to those that exhibit no knowledge of their own faith, and believe they are saved for reasons that don't line up with what the Bible actually says. This was meant to tie into the decline of church demographics and how attendance and those who identify as Christian have gone down quite a bit over the years, not as a judgment on where one stands on gay rights issues.

I also am in no way saying that you aren't a "true" Christian at all, and my apologies if it seemed that way. I have many friends from all sorts of walks of life and political views that I don't question their salvation at all. Not because they believe "correctly", but because they try. They attempt to show the love of Christ. They know where their salvation comes from, and despite the sin that plagues all of us, they do their best to become better. There are others that I see that don't even try to show the love of Christ, they don't bear the fruit. They could be Christian, and saved. Again, I can't ever know that. But I can know that they aren't living the life they should be, and need repentance, or quite potentially may not actually be Christian, and thusly need to be witnessed to.

I very much subscribe to Matthew 7:15-20:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

[jp1]

Ack, I am a Methodist. Still, I don't place my beliefs entirely in the hands of the Church. I feel that any man minister or not should have their own relationship with their beliefs or (in my case) God. Questioning what you are preached to about and the interpretation of your chosen spiritual guide are imperative in my opinion.

Sarge, I don't mean to sound harsh. I understand where your beliefs are based and respect that you are steadfast. I did misunderstand your initial comments a bit, and though we aren't on the same page I believe you have pure intentions. Like I said, I don't mean to vilify you at all. We have some opposing views, but I respect you. Please don't mistake my criticism of your post for condemnation of you. My text doesn't always convey what I'd like either.

I very much subscribe to Matthew 7:15-20:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Here is where we differ a little. This would sum up my position better.

Romans 14:1-4

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Now, what that means to the two of us may differ. I will say this, and this is stepping away from our conversation a little Sarge, so it isn't directed at you.

I would never attend a church of any denomination that would preach anything other than acceptance and love of your fellow man. Leave the judgments in God's hands at all times, and keep an open mind and heart. I accept the atheist man, the muslim man, the gay man, or any man as a friend as long as they are kind. I leave them to their own devices when it comes to faith.

That sounds a little soap boxy, but I'm just trying to give you some idea of where I am coming from.

[marurun]

You're really going to sit there with a straight face and say that the average American doesn't assume another average American is Christian?

I don't know how to respond to this other than, "no."

I can tell you that FAR more often than not, the response of folks finding out I'm not Christian (in person as opposed to on-line) is some degree of surprise, though I will say this is far more often among those older than me. For folks my age and a little younger, it's more often surprise than not, but not to quite as startling a degree.

This was particularly dramatic in the south. The assumption was always that a well-spoken white boy was a Christian. Period.

[Sarge]

Very well said, mjmjr25.

Also, jp1, I love that part of Romans as well. It's one of my absolute favorite books. I feel that is a call to action when we have seen that a brother or sister is weaker in the faith. I have no animus against a new Christian. I realize they need time to learn what it means to be a Christian beyond accepting Christ as Savior. I do feel, like mjmjr said before, that there are people that hit check-boxes that have nothing to do with actual salvation. I feel this is particularly common in the Deep South, where it's sometimes less a personal relationship with the Savior, and more a way of life, part of the culture. I've heard the term "cultural Christianity", and I think it fits.

I feel that verse in Romans very much addresses those that are Christian, but if one isn't seeing the fruit, one has to assume either they need more spiritual help from fellow believers, or that they might not actually have a relationship with Christ despite professing to be Christian. In either case, the call is not to castigate, or to be harsh with them, but to instruct, to disciple, out of the same love Christ showed. We're all sinners, and none of us measure up to God's standard.

I think we're likely more closely aligned than we think on this, it's just really hard to compose some of these thoughts in an effective manner. There's a ton of nuance that's really hard for me to capture sometimes!

[marurun]

If someone self-identifies as a Christian, I have to believe them. I'm in no position to separate by degrees of Christianity or whatnot. My lack of self-identification as a Christian is apparently a surprising thing to most of the world. And those people who are most oft surprised and are Christian themselves (the majority of those who are surprised) I would not hesitate to assume are surprised because they assume I am like them, and that most people "like me" or "like them" are like them in that aspect as well.

[Sarge]

I can understand how this becomes more difficult if you're not a Christian (or any other faith). If you're not familiar with what the faith expects of its adherents, then the only thing you can go by is their word. And I think that's actually a problem outside of religion, as well, since it can be applied to pretty much any ideology or position. That's why I like to know as much as I can about a particular ideology, to understand if they are what they say they are.

[samsonlonghair]

Regarding the presumption that one is Christian...

Whether or not it's logical, projecting our own assumptions and cultural biases onto others is normal irrespective of our religion.

Example: My father's best friend is Latino, and within his culture it is assumed that a son is usually named after his father. He always called me "Kenny Junior". When I told him that my name is not "Kenny Junior" he was surprised and confused. "I thought you were Kenny's son," he said, "If you're not Kenny Junior where is Kenny Junior?"

Long Story Short - We are all guilty of making assumptions about others, not just Christians.