Sega's new arcade hardware...

[marurun]

Also, it's worth noting that since this is a dedicated machine, overhead is much lower so far more of the system resources go directly to to game. At home you're running Windows Vista or XP and it's eating up a ton of your resources. The embedded Windows on this machine is probably taking up a megabyte of memory and only really taking up cycles of processor time during startup or in diagnostic mode or when they're installing new games to the hardware.

Actually, you can bet even Embedded Windows is still gonna have a large overhead and a lot of running processes. Why would you use Embedded Windows unless it provided libraries and OS routines for the system? Why not otherwise use Linux? I suspect DirectX and Direct3D are part of the package, unless Sega has people using alternative libraries or has them coding directly to the video card. Per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Em ... ndard|here), Windows Embedded Standard 2009, which is what Sega is using, is a modular XP with the full Win32 API. This means the OS probably takes at least 32 or 64 MB, depending on whatever additional modules they decided to use.

That said, there will still be a lot more power available to use for games than a desktop PC.

People are complaining about this using rather standard parts, but that's been pretty common for decades. Heck, the Z80 processor has been featured in the Sega Master System, Gamegear, Genesis, Gameboy, Neo Geo, several TI graphing calculators, the MSX, the TRS-80, the ZX Spectrum, and about a billion other places. The Atari 2600 had a custom processor, but it's customization was to remove functionality from the 6502 processor (used in the NES and arcade hardware) so that it could be cheaper.

Many arcade and home systems used lots of additional hardware as well, though. The Neo Geo used a 68000 and a Z80 together, with custom graphics circuitry with set abilities. I mean, the 68000 in the Neo Geo is the same as the 68000 in the Sega Genesis, only much faster. And both systems have a Z80. So why is the Neo Geo so much more powerful? Custom data buses, caches, and graphics hardware.

And some systems did use custom CPUs. The SNES and the TG-16 were backwards compatible, mostly, with the 6502 from which their CPUs were derived, but they both took different tacks to improving them. Nintendo had Ricoh make changes to the 65816 and Hudson pushed for higher speed and more instructions. If you're wondering... the Hu6280 in the TG-16 is actually more powerful than the 5A22 in the SNES, if you're counting how much data and how many instructions can be processed in a set amount of time. The SNES is heavily reliant on use of auxilliary graphics and sound hardware while the TG-16 was heavily dependent upon good programming. Nintendo shouldn't have compromised with a backwards compatible CPU that they ultimately weren't going to use for backwards compatibility.

So while Sega's new system does have custom, durable parts, they're much more standard than older systems. The mobo might be a custom build, but it's going to use standard parts and buses. No custom co-processors, no custom video hardware. Make it easy to port to consoles and PC but it does remove some of the romance.

[Limewater]

Actually, you can bet even Embedded Windows is still gonna have a large overhead and a lot of running processes.

If that's the case, Microsoft doesn't really understand how Embedded Systems work.

Windows Embedded Standard 2009, which is what Sega is using, is a modular XP with the full Win32 API. This means the OS probably takes at least 32 or 64 MB, depending on whatever additional modules they decided to use.

They want the option of Windows API, probably to make porting to other systems easier. That doesn't mean they necessarily have to use it for every game. They probably are using DirectX for graphics, but that doesn't really require that much actual Windows overhead. My guess is that as big a factor in their choice is the networking features. I would guess they are planning on being able to push updates onto the machines remotely, and I think Embedded Windows offers easy ways to do that. I have embedded systems experience, but I've not used Embedded Windows, so I could easily be wrong on this. I also don't work for Sega.

Many arcade and home systems used lots of additional hardware as well, though. The Neo Geo used a 68000 and a Z80 together, with custom graphics circuitry with set abilities. I mean, the 68000 in the Neo Geo is the same as the 68000 in the Sega Genesis, only much faster. And both systems have a Z80. So why is the Neo Geo so much more powerful? Custom data buses, caches, and graphics hardware.

Of course they used additional hardware. An arcade machine is more than just a microprocessor. I picked the Z80 because it's a standard part that shows up friggin' everywhere, so it was a good example of home and arcade designers using standard parts.

Buses are buses. There is a little bit of variety, but not a lot of crazy unique stuff going on with any particular design, at least of which I am aware. Caches are also pretty standardized.

But you're right about the Neo Geo. It did have a custom graphics processor... Just like the PS3, X-Box 360, and the Wii.

And, actually, from what few sources I've been able to find on the new hardware, there is nothing specific enough to let us know that there isn't anything custom going on with the graphics cards on this round of boards.

And some systems did use custom CPUs.

Of course. I mentioned one myself. That does not make it the norm, though.

So while Sega's new system does have custom, durable parts, they're much more standard than older systems. The mobo might be a custom build, but it's going to use standard parts and buses. No custom co-processors, no custom video hardware. Make it easy to port to consoles and PC but it does remove some of the romance.

I don't know why you assume that the video hardware is not custom. Sure, it's made by names you know, but in the instances where video games have required custom graphics chips, they were still manufactured by the expected brands.

A lot of the romance is gone from gaming hardware, but I think a big part of that is the complexity itself, which you mentioned earlier. It used to be possible to completely know a piece of video game hardware. You could completely know a VCS or an NES, and major games could be made by individuals or very small teams. You'll still occasionally come across major games made by an individual or small group, but they're pretty rare these days.

But I'm about to sign off and won't be back for several weeks, so I guess I'll leave you the last word on this matter.

[marurun]

MS has a version of Windows Embedded that fits into as little as 1 MB of RAM. It's the CE version that Windows Mobile is derived from. Sega ain't using that one, though.

And 32 MB isn't so bad for the full Win32 APIs and other stuff. Not these days.