Two Different Types of Indie Developers...

[MrPopo]

Did you just compare the ability of small indie devs to play the long game with Microsoft's ability? Because one of these two doesn't have billions of dollars in cash reserves along with billions of dollars of revenue from other divisions.

We get it, you're pissed that you can't play all the entries in a particular game on the platform you originally chose. Tough shit. The world isn't out to please you.

[BogusMeatFactory]

I am staying out of this argument, because I am in a bad mood. I will just say that all of this is not worth being upset about.

Our opinions are not infallible nor are we filled with perfect, air tight arguments. This is not an us vs. them argument and indie or not is irrelevant. Everyone just calm your shit and move on.

[BoneSnapDeez]

I've never had this problem on the ColecoVision or Vectrex.

[artphotodude]

I am staying out of this argument, because I am in a bad mood. I will just say that all of this is not worth being upset about.

Our opinions are not infallible nor are we filled with perfect, air tight arguments. This is not an us vs. them argument and indie or not is irrelevant. Everyone just calm your shit and move on.

"And the award for loveliest usage of the S-Word goes to...!"

Kudos on having so much better objectivity than some of the moderators of this site!

It is funny to me however how you never get this much flack when you make arguments FOR bad behavior. Only when you argue AGAINST it. Could that be a reflection on Ayn Rand's America???

“…a future you do nothing to change, because it asks nothing of you today.”
Governor Nix, Tomorrowland

Anyway, thanks BogusMeatFactory for throwing the flag on this. I need to stop letting myself get baited into pissing-contests with objectivists.

[marurun]

You have clearly never been or worked for or even with an indie developer. I haven't either, but I've read a lot of stuff many of them have put out. Most indie devs don't see massive success and live on something akin to a razor's edge, financially. For many of them the difficulty of porting to other platforms is a pain (thank goodness many modern engines help ameliorate some of that pain).

From the standpoint of an indie dev, they programmed the game for platform A. They later decided to make a port for platform B. That port probably didn't take nearly as much work as the original programming for A, but it still took work that cost them money. Platform A is now financially a dead-end, so they commit to no further work on A, and commit their full resources solely to B. It sucks if you're stuck on A, but expecting them to give you a free copy of your game on platform B is tough on them.

I think it's more reasonable to ask for (but not expect) a discount. Maybe they charge a nominal fee ($1.99) for previous owners. That way they don't completely take a bath. Many indie devs make just enough money to be able to keep making games. They aren't buying BMWs.

I guess the bottom line, for me, is that they made the game, they put it out there, and if they are honest devs they tried to fix bugs that came up and made sure their game was priced well enough to be a good value for the average target gamer. If the dev does that much, I consider them to be good folks. They don't owe me anything after that. I'm certainly not entitled to more than that. It's entertainment, not water, food, or shelter, and goodness knows there's already a lot of free entertainment out there (library, anyone?). I think it would be great if devs were able to be supportive in the way you express you would like them to, but I'm also not willing to rake them over the coals if they don't, because I understand all too well the reasons they might not, and it has a lot less to do with being a bunch of greedy, head-on-backwards jack-asses than you are casually implying.

[BogusMeatFactory]

I totally shouldn't have posted... because I want to make it clear that I wasn't defending artphotodude at all.

[winds]

I am staying out of this argument, because I am in a bad mood.

Always remember... Shenmue III is coming

[Erik_Twice]

I totally shouldn't have posted... because I want to make it clear that I wasn't defending artphotodude at all.

As expected from Ayn Rand's America. Why do you hate video games?

Really, there have been better trolls, this thread was pointless.

[artphotodude]

You have clearly never been or worked for or even with an indie developer. I haven't either, but I've read a lot of stuff many of them have put out. Most indie devs don't see massive success and live on something akin to a razor's edge, financially. For many of them the difficulty of porting to other platforms is a pain (thank goodness many modern engines help ameliorate some of that pain).

From the standpoint of an indie dev, they programmed the game for platform A. They later decided to make a port for platform B. That port probably didn't take nearly as much work as the original programming for A, but it still took work that cost them money. Platform A is now financially a dead-end, so they commit to no further work on A, and commit their full resources solely to B. It sucks if you're stuck on A, but expecting them to give you a free copy of your game on platform B is tough on them.

I think it's more reasonable to ask for (but not expect) a discount. Maybe they charge a nominal fee ($1.99) for previous owners. That way they don't completely take a bath. Many indie devs make just enough money to be able to keep making games. They aren't buying BMWs.

I guess the bottom line, for me, is that they made the game, they put it out there, and if they are honest devs they tried to fix bugs that came up and made sure their game was priced well enough to be a good value for the average target gamer. If the dev does that much, I consider them to be good folks. They don't owe me anything after that. I'm certainly not entitled to more than that. It's entertainment, not water, food, or shelter, and goodness knows there's already a lot of free entertainment out there (library, anyone?). I think it would be great if devs were able to be supportive in the way you express you would like them to, but I'm also not willing to rake them over the coals if they don't, because I understand all too well the reasons they might not, and it has a lot less to do with being a bunch of greedy, head-on-backwards jack-asses than you are casually implying.

Well, I have not been directly involved in game design, but have designed and published 15 open-source Mac applications: one of which (a web-video player/downloader/mp3-converter for older Macs without modern Flash support) has been downloaded 2000+ times all around the world, and while it has not made me any money and has taken hundreds of hours of my time to write and debug, has given me a lot of satisfaction, figuring it out , and I maintain it to this day - issuing a new version for modern OSX in a week or so (making a qt port to Linux in a few months).

We have somehow got this notion that innovation is tied to the profit motive and this is crap. People who do big/cool things, do them to prove they can, or solve a puzzle. Money often just swoops in to exploit innovation.

My point in the original post is that if two SMALL devs like Mattrified and Crunching Koalas, can put their customers first, then what excuse does a much bigger house like Coffee Stain have for not doing so? Accept that the money has blinded them to their original vision of making great software - i.e. SOLD OUT.

Why is it so scary to stand up for one's self as a consumer and/or vote with your wallet (and perhaps in the ballot box) for the guy who is taking care of you?

Sell Outs should be ashamed - PERIOD.

I totally shouldn't have posted... because I want to make it clear that I wasn't defending artphotodude at all.

I never thought you did. It was your apparent notion of calming the conversation down, that seemed laudable. I guess that one can not even compliment an adversary in a debate on this forum - Maybe you all have been playing too many video games.

[Flake]

one of which (a web-video player/downloader/mp3-converter for older Macs without modern Flash support) has been downloaded 2000+ times all around the world, and while it has not made me any money and has taken hundreds of hours of my time to write and debug, has given me a lot of satisfaction, figuring it out

This. The portal for making payments to my mortgage company includes an alternative payment field where I transfer to them the satisfaction I gained doing non-compensated work. I generally opt for this. Same thing with the grocery store. They can clearly see how satisfied I am that I did work and they accept that as payment for the vegetables and beer that I have at checkout.

Can you guys not understand this simple concept?