Reproductions: What is our community ok with?

[Ziggy]

^ Without looking, I'm assuming they're cheap knock-offs of Everdrives. Go on the Everdrive forums, there's a ton of info about knock-off flash carts.

[mjmjr25]

Oh, good eye, Ziggy - at least they removed Nintendo on a couple parts so it's easier to spot. I had first saw the Little Samson and inspected that one closer - that one looks like a straight copy:

Little Samson

[marlowe221]

I have not responded to the poll, as I am not very knowledgeable about the world of reproductions. But I did want to say a couple of things to the administrators and moderators on the general topic of allowing/not allowing things on the B/S/T forum.

For those who don't know, I am a lawyer out here in the real world, so that's where I am coming from on this.

First, whatever your decision is, make sure that the rules are something that you can actually enforce and/or effectively police. You cannot control what someone does with games/carts/discs in the world outside this forum. It would also be very difficult, if not impossible, for any of the IP holders to hold Racketboy legally responsible for anything that happens outside of this forum. There are lots of legal and practical reasons why this is the case which I will be happy to elaborate on if anyone actually cares.

Second, make sure that what constitutes a violation is clearly stated. Make sure the punishment is clearly stated. If you want to provide a method for a seller to defend himself/herself, which you certainly don't have to do, make sure that is clearly stated.

Third, make provisions for the unintentional. What if there is a seller who has a bootleg/reproduction copy of Earthbound and he is selling it as an original because he honestly doesn't know? What if he is an honest person who was duped himself? While you don't have to do it, strictly speaking, making some provision for a good faith seller of a bad cart would be the reasonable thing to do.

All that said, I am willing to help in any way that I can. If ya'll would like some help drafting a rule, that sort of thing is right in my wheelhouse. Free of charge, of course!

In fact, if the Admins/Mods ever want someone who reads and interprets rules for a living to have a look at any of the forum rules (new or old) for revision or anything else, I am publicly volunteering myself to serve in any way that would be helpful.

Edit: I am also always happy to answer any legal questions for the Racketboy staff. I cannot give specific legal advice unless certain criteria are met (mostly jurisdictional) but I can certainly talk about and explain legal principles and practicalities.

[Westane]

Honestly, I think the fact that there's any differentiating at all is insane...

I just don't understand how easily people can justify making/buying/discussing translation reproductions, but be so quick to damn reproductions of games released in their own country. Why is it perfectly fine to buy a bootleg copy of Secret of Mana 2 that's been translated to English, or Terranigma which is actually in English but never got a NA release, but completely out of the question to bring up repro's for games like Shantae or Wild Guns, which have completely skyrocketed out of reach for people who just want to play them on their native hardware? Bootlegging Japan or the EU is fine but not US games? I have a reproduction of Earthbound Uncut with the cleaned up script and intact references, where does that fall on the grey scale? It's basically a retranslation, technically.

Likewise, discussing Everdrives and other flash carts is fine, and even sometimes promoted as an alternative to reproductions because... why? Emulators are just as bad, but perfectly accepted as a part of communities like these, despite the fact that it almost ethically worse than any of the other options.

I recognize the extremes as well... I know if I want a legitimate copy of Shantae or Wild Guns, I can buy them off the 3DS/WiiU Virtual Console. Frankly it's just legal emulation, but it gives me a way to support the original developers. In fact, this is really the ONLY way to pay the devs for the original games, as when you buy a used (or even new!) copy of Earthbound off eBay, Nintendo doesn't see a penny, not that they care, that game was already bought at some point. Of course, now that that game is out of print and every copy of it that's been manufactured has been sold, why should anyone care AT ALL that there's reproductions of it? Aside from collectors looking to sell of course...

I also know that there are people who will try to pass off reproductions as real or original copies, and I know that's a problem. I choose to believe that the majority of the retro gaming community, and even the reproduction community, are people who are good enough to be honest about their sales. I also believe completely that it's on the buying to do their research when making any large purchase, recognizing price disparities, knowing what questions to ask the seller, etc.

If it wasn't clear I'm very PRO reproduction for a variety of reasons, as well as pro emulation and flash cart usage. I don't feel like there's any wrong way to play these games which are quickly reaching 20-30+ years in age. I'm happy to pay a reproduction maker for the hardware and labor so that I can actually slam a cartridge into a console and display something on my shelf. I'm much less happy to pay someone $200+ for a rare, old game because that's what it was arbitrarily decided that game was worth. I'm not that kind of collector.

We never had these discussions back when we were making copies of cassette tapes, or recording movie rentals onto a VHS. The only thing stopping people from making copies of NES games for their friends was ability to do so... I'm not trying to defend blatant theft, just emphasize how strange and, frankly over-exaggerated grey area has become.

I realize how ranty and incoherent that all was, but it's been on my mind for a while. I'm just tired of being shamed for my US reproduction games by the same people who endorse foreign repro's and emulators. I'm not trying to call anyone out either, I'm just waking wide generalizations.

</rant>

[BoneSnapDeez]

The difference is that an English Terranigma never existed as a retail game. It ONLY exists on the secondary market, as an unofficial repro cart. Whether it's a "bootleg" is debatable because there never was a "real" version.

Bootlegs of Shantae, EarthBound, etc. are designed to appear like the real thing, and the possibility of those entering the secondary market on a grand scale is a nightmare for collectors and those who value the real thing.

[ninjainspandex]

Are reproductions and emulation wrong? Yes. Do i give a shit? No. I'm rebel and the ladies love a badboy who doesn't play by society's rules.

[Ack]

Are reproductions and emulation wrong? Yes. Do i give a shit? No. I'm rebel and the ladies love a badboy who doesn't play by society's rules.

Yes, but to protect our community from your lack of ethics, we'll have to ban you from using the BST.

[MrPopo]

The difference is that an English Terranigma never existed as a retail game. It ONLY exists on the secondary market, as an unofficial repro cart. Whether it's a "bootleg" is debatable because there never was a "real" version.

Bootlegs of Shantae, EarthBound, etc. are designed to appear like the real thing, and the possibility of those entering the secondary market on a grand scale is a nightmare for collectors and those who value the real thing.

This. From the context of people who just want to play a game it's all the same. Find a way to get the code in your native language and go to town. It's the physical collector niche that wants a way to differentiate between official and unofficial stuff. When it's a translation that's easy, since the translation didn't exist before. When it's a straight repro of a retail title now you're essentially bootlegging.

[Westane]

I understand, and even acknowledged that it can be a problem for collectors. I understand that it's an means for dishonest or, more likely, uninformed sellers to really cause a lot of frustration in the secondary market. I just think we should see accept reproductions for what they are, regardless of the reason. A bootleg is a bootleg no matter what language it's in...

If I had the means, or rather the drive, to make my own reproductions in a cost effective manner, that's probably all that I'd have on my shelf. I don't collect for any kind of value, I just want the game on my shelf, repro or no. That's why I even bother to make cases for all my SegaCD, Dreamcast and Saturn CD-R's...

I get that it's an unpopular opinion, and that me saying "Don't worry guys it's strictly for personal use!" won't change anything, but that's where I'm coming from.

[Ack]

I remember, Ziggy used to make reproductions, mainly of translated Super Famicom games or of prototypes that never saw a release. And he did really good work, kept in touch with his customers if new translation patches came out, tried to find the best materials to work with and so on. He asked for around $65 usually as I recall. I know, I bought one of his repros of Live-A-Live because the novelty of playing it in my SNES was interesting to me.

Then a forum member here bought one of his repros of Starfox 2 and put it up on eBay claiming it was a real prototype, asking for something like $500. Partly as a result(he was also concerned about cannibalizing games), Ziggy quit making repros.

Translated games that never saw a release here...I appreciate the novelty of it, but we have to lose a game in the process, and there is nothing stopping someone from taking it and making unethical claims which can end up hurting collectors. Just like someone could potentially make repros for relatively cheap of a game like Hagane or Aerofighters and then pass them off as the real deal.

Things to consider, guys.