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Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:08 pm
by Menegrothx
Im sure that title got many of you riled up before even opening this thread :lol: Anyways the difference between oldschool and new RPGs was mentioned in the favorite lineage of RPGs thread and I just stumbled across this article which I found kinda intresting. What do you guys think? Are actual roleplaying elements being dumbed down in modern RPGs, or are RPGs just moving away from their pen and paper roots?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... Gs-Anymore
http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_g ... yable.html
A college professor that teaches the history of videogames has noticed that kids simply cannot grasp Ultima IV.

Michael Abbott teaches a course called The Art and History of Electronic Gaming at Wabash College, and is known for spreading the videogame love to another course where students must study Portal. In an interesting article he's written on his blog Brainy Gamer, Abbott discusses the trouble kids have with playing older RPGs.

Abbott exposes his students to older titles like the original Fallout, Rogue, and Planetfall in his course. Most of the students handle being taken out of their comfort zones with the isometric strategy title, ASCII roguelike, and text-based adventure, but there's one game in particular that they don't seem to be able to handle: Ultima IV.

Origin released Ultima IV on the Apple II in 1985 and it's acclaimed as one of the top RPGs for its time. Instead of having players focus on killing orcs, it required that they reach enlightenment within eight virtues to become the series' Avatar. Its character creation system, conversation system, and huge world are examples of what players liked about it.

But Ultima IV is very different from World of Warcraft and other modern games that hold the player's hand and point an arrow at their goals. Abbott provided all the documentation that his students would need, but they didn't seem to realize that the reading the game's documentation was necessary.

One student said: "I've been very confused throughout the entire experience. I've honestly sat here for hours trying to figure out what to do and it just isn't making much sense to me right now." Another: "When I start a game I like to do it all on my own, but it's been impossible to do so with Ultima." A third: "I tried for awhile without any walkthroughs to get the full gamer experience sort of thing and within the hour I gave up because of a combination of bad controls and a hard to get into story for me at least. It reminded me of a bad Runescape."

The comments don't seem to be indicative of one of the top RPGs of all time. Students also call the game "boring" and "unplayable," but when Abbott questioned whether they read Ultima IV's documentation provided in PDF format, it turned out that not a single one had. "Wow," one replied when Abbott told him that the game's designer, Richard Garriott, expected players to read the manual first.

Abbott believes the "gap separating today's generation of gamers from those of us who once drew maps on grid paper is nearly unbridgeable." Indeed, this seems to be true about a lot of games from the 1980s and 1990s. While certain games were revolutionary for their time, even I find it hard to go back to older titles that I once enjoyed immensely, so it's unlikely for the average teenage Halo player to be able to realize the impact of a game like Ultima IV. Abbott no longer assumes "the game will make its case for greatness all by itself," and says he may take a more hands-on educational approach in regards to the classic RPG.


Here is another intresting read from the same author
http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_g ... out-3.html

Suddenly, they got Fallout. They grokked the mechanics and embraced the non-linear gameplay. They made peace with uncertainty. But more importantly, they built a relationship with the character and the offbeat but perilous world. As Iroquois Pliskin points out in an essay I shared with my students:

But this takes time. Fallout doesn't greet you with a getting-to-know-you opening level or a hand-holding tutorial. My students were willing - granted, at my insistence - to keep plugging away, and they were richly rewarded for their efforts. It's nice to be right. I may have even gained back the credibility I lost with Planetfall (which is a great game no matter what they say!)



On an unrelated noted - what kind of school has courses where the main objective is to play through classic video games? Damn.

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:55 pm
by BoneSnapDeez
I don't think young gamers realize how essential instruction booklets were back in the day. Some games were essentially impossible without them as they provided clues, characters stats, maps, and most importantly..... instructions on how to play the game. :lol: A lot of this was due to practical purposes of course as I'm sure it was easier to fill a manual full of text as opposed to including it in the actual game. No tutorial levels back in those days!

To be fair, I got my first taste of the Ultima games in the 1990s and thought were pretty tough. Everything was so cryptic and the landscapes/dungeons felt so open and barren (the lack of music in some of the much older games really added to the effect). I used to own the Ultima Collection (contained Ultima 0-9) and would attempt to play each game for a couple of hours, eventually quitting and going back to a JRPG instead.

I think it's fair to say that games in general have gotten easier. This is true for all genres. Challenging games (Contra 4, Dark Souls, Ninja Gaiden) have become notorious and noteworthy for their difficulty, while 20 years ago the difficulty was just implied... you expected it.

Imagine a CoD/Halo kid of today trying to play Doom/Quake/Wolfenstein 3D. Oh boy. :lol:

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:04 pm
by theclaw
Modern games replaced difficulty with frustation. Downright infuriating for the wrong reasons. First person shooters today particularly. My kill/death ratio last time I tried Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so bad I can't remember it.

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:44 am
by isiolia
theclaw wrote:Modern games replaced difficulty with frustation. Downright infuriating for the wrong reasons. First person shooters today particularly. My kill/death ratio last time I tried Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so bad I can't remember it.


I dunno if that's a fair assumption on the whole.

Modern games can be difficult, but I think they've just gotten the point where they don't need to be.

Frustration is subjective, and without concrete reasons why your kill/death was skewed badly it's hard to say whether the game was cheap or you just weren't playing as well as you needed to. My kill/death ratio playing through Otomedius Excellent was atrocious, but I attribute that to sucking at SHMUPs :lol:

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:52 am
by RyaNtheSlayA
theclaw wrote:Modern games replaced difficulty with frustation. Downright infuriating for the wrong reasons. First person shooters today particularly. My kill/death ratio last time I tried Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so bad I can't remember it.


I think it's the opposite to be perfectly honest. While some games are indeed much too easy, I think we have a better grasp on difficulty now than we did in the 90s. Cheap deaths are largely considered taboo. You simply don't see games launch you into a pit, and make you start from the beginning anymore.

I hate it when people confuse honest difficulty with bad game design.

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:58 am
by ExedExes
Image

Perfect place to use this (and this just doesn't go for finely crafted RPGs either these days)

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:54 am
by Vita Mayo
ExedExes wrote:Image

Perfect place to use this (and this just doesn't go for finely crafted RPGs either these days)


This is a fallacy, I believe.There are lots of reasons most of the retro games send you back at the beginning when you fail. One of them is these games have thin content, this creates an illusion that the game is robust because you keep on going back again and again.

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:55 am
by Menegrothx
ExedExes wrote:Image


This is unrelated, but I had to buy myself a Master system model 1 after watching the first two seasons of Regular Show :)

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:03 am
by Erik_Twice
I think there's an ugly trend nowadays where it's expected for games to bend down and instantly provide gratification. The audience doesn't want to get involved, they do not want to understand the game and it's very difficult to make a good game without that. It's not about difficulty, it's all about involvement.

Let me use PacMan as an example. Mainstream audiences nowadays want a new maze after every level, even if they haven't actually understood it.

It's now unthinkable a game like Defender can be popular, nobody would even bother to understand the controls.

Re: Article: Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:54 am
by isiolia
General_Norris wrote:I think there's an ugly trend nowadays where it's expected for games to bend down and instantly provide gratification. The audience doesn't want to get involved, they do not want to understand the game and it's very difficult to make a good game without that. It's not about difficulty, it's all about involvement.


I don't think accessibility is an ugly trend.

What many modern games offer is less the absence of challenge, and more the ability to scale. A player who is less invested in the title can still play it and have fun (which, for most, is the point).

There are still plenty of games that offer challenges that require mastering the game, not to mention competitive play. Things not killing you every three steps in an RPG? I bet you can set the difficulty up so they do. :lol: That your neighbor slogged through Fallout New Vegas on Easy mode doesn't mean you can't play on Very Tough with Hardcore Mode enabled, right?

I can see it being frustrating in cooperative games as it can definitely be annoying in MMOs when trying to work with people who don't know the game well...but generally, to each their own.