The Wrestling Thread

[Raging Justice]

Huge drop off in ratings for the second episode of Collision (it got beat by NXT). CM Punk is officially not a draw.

Dynamite also had a really low rating this week, implying that Forbidden Door did not generate any excitement whatsoever. They really need to do a better job building up to these Forbidden Door shows, and having something actually newsworthy happen on the events themselves. Nobody cares about "five star matches". That doesn't bring in ratings. Tony Kahn will never understand this

AEW needs something that can be the equivalent of the Bloodline story in WWE cause nothing is really generating interest right now.

[Reprise]

Huge drop off in ratings for the second episode of Collision (it got beat by NXT). CM Punk is officially not a draw.

Dynamite also had a really low rating this week, implying that Forbidden Door did not generate any excitement whatsoever. They really need to do a better job building up to these Forbidden Door shows, and having something actually newsworthy happen on the events themselves. Nobody cares about "five star matches". That doesn't bring in ratings. Tony Kahn will never understand this

AEW needs something that can be the equivalent of the Bloodline story in WWE cause nothing is really generating interest right now.

The problem is AEW is for pure pro wrestling fans. It will never have widespread appeal. AEW probably could have the best stories imaginable and WWE could dedicate all 3 hours of Raw or Smackdown to being nothing but Brock Lesnar farting into a mic, and WWE would still annihilate AEW in terms of ratings. A hell of a lot of WWE fans aren't even proper wrestling fans. They're the Disney, Nintendo and Marvel of pro wrestling: Huge market domination and market products to people who aren't actually fans of the genre they sell, because of how accessible their products are. E.g. Nintendo selling Wiis, DSs and now Switchs to people who aren't really hardcore gamers and how Marvel sells superhero movies to people who don't read superhero comics.

This isn't me criticising WWE by any means or excusing AEW for their stale feuds/characters and average storylines. It's just what it is.

And sadly, as for CM Punk, in my opinion he is the most entertaining thing on AEW right now. Other than Orange Cassidy and Skye Blue (she's still pretty green, but she has been getting over with the crowd and I always enjoy watching that happen).

AEW has kinda reached its peak and plateaued. The excitement of having a new company has worn out. People love the underdog until they make it and then they turn on it, unless the underdog can adapt and keep itself interesting. It happens with wrestlers themselves and it happened with AEW.

Nobody gives a crap about NJPW here. They do these shows to create dream matches for hardcore wrestling fans, but it doesn't appeal to mainstream audiences. They should try to do more to get people invested in it, develop stronger stories and make it more interesting.

Dynamite and Collision need better stories too and they need to learn how create cliffhangers. They don't understand how to create must-watch, cannot be missed television. I missed Dynamite the other day. What did I miss? From the sounds of it, nothing. Why should I tune in next week? No idea, it doesn't sound like much happened. I'll probably catch up this weekend, but the point I am making is it's really easy to miss AEW's shows and not actually miss much in terms of any story progression.

They produce good matches and solid wrestling, but I can understand why more casual audiences will watch and think why should I care? As you said, 5 star matches isn't enough. Most people would rather watch a 3 or 4 star match with emotion and psychology that tells a great story than one of Meltzer's 7/5 star matches.

[Raging Justice]

Welp, Money in the Bank was awesome...and historic. Fanfuckingtastic main event, a great Money in the Bank match, and another not so great Money in the Bank match that nonetheless had an awesome winner that made the crowd happy. Speaking of which, the crowd was awesome. We also had someone turn on their partner, and another someone...possibly having turned on their partner??? We also had a title change

Oh, and Drew McIntyre's back...to one hell of a pop

I could have done without the lame ass John Cena appearance though. God, I can't stand that fake ass poser. And I skipped the Cody/Dominik match. I love Dom Dom and Mami, but couldn't care less about Cody

For me, these are the two biggest talking points coming out of the show:

Spoilers

[Raging Justice]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of WWE fans left and migrated over to AEW. It's bizarre that no one boos Cena anymore. He even pointed that out in his Money in the Bank promo. It's also bizarre that Cody Rhodes went from being the most hated man in AEW to vying with Seth Freakin Rollins (and in some places Sammy Zayn) for most over babyface in WWE.

It leads me to believe that there is a real split between AEW fans and WWE fans. There's not much crossover. Most people are either WWE fans or AEW fans. If Cody went back to AEW he'd be getting booed out of every building again and I can't see a guy like Cena bring popular in AEW either.

The WWE fans who used to hijack shows are gone, something Cena again reminded me of in his otherwise obnoxious promo. The current fanbase just seems to go along with whatever WWE wants. The more independent, occasionally rebellious, unpredictable, and highly opinionated fans that once forced WWE to make Daniel Bryan champion at Wrestlemania over Batista and Orton all left for AEW.

The kind of corporate, milk toast babyfaces that Cena and Cody are would not be well received in AEW, but mindless sheep WWE fans cheer for them.

Just some random thoughts I had while watching Money in the Bank

[Reprise]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of WWE fans left and migrated over to AEW. It's bizarre that no one boos Cena anymore. He even pointed that out in his Money in the Bank promo. It's also bizarre that Cody Rhodes went from being the most hated man in AEW to vying with Seth Freakin Rollins (and in some places Sammy Zayn) for most over babyface in WWE.

It leads me to believe that there is a real split between AEW fans and WWE fans. There's not much crossover. Most people are either WWE fans or AEW fans. If Cody went back to AEW he'd be getting booed out of every building again and I can't see a guy like Cena bring popular in AEW either.

The WWE fans who used to hijack shows are gone, something Cena again reminded me of in his otherwise obnoxious promo. The current fanbase just seems to go along with whatever WWE wants. The more independent, occasionally rebellious, unpredictable, and highly opinionated fans that once forced WWE to make Daniel Bryan champion at Wrestlemania over Batista and Orton all left for AEW.

The kind of corporate, milk toast babyfaces that Cena and Cody are would not be well received in AEW, but mindless sheep WWE fans cheer for them.

Just some random thoughts I had while watching Money in the Bank

I was just thinking that this morning when I was reading your initial thoughts on MITB and you mentioned Cody's match with Dominic and that you aren't interested in Cody.

I always felt it was weird that Cody is so over as a babyface in WWE. I like Cody enough as a person, but Cody the character, particularly in WWE, is just so basic and one dimensional. He's just your stereotypical baby face. He even has the American flag tattooed on his neck for classic "I love America" babyface patriotism. He's basically just John Cena #2.

I guess maybe why John Cena got cheered so much is because it was in the UK and we'll eat any wrestling up at the moment. It's partly why AEW is actually probably going to sell out All In at Wembley. Lots of people were skeptical, but I said at the time, as someone from the UK, it would do well. And that's no reflection on AEW as a company. 65,000 tickets didn't sell to see Kenny Omega, MJF or any other AEW guy. They sold because it's a big wrestling show held by a major company. It's just that we rarely get any big wrestling events here and so we take any we can get. Plus you'll get people from mainland Europe hopping over here for it.

Speaking of that, I guess that's why WWE had to suddenly decide that they're going to hold a Wrestlemania in England and decide to start teasing it before All In is held

[Raging Justice]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of WWE fans left and migrated over to AEW. It's bizarre that no one boos Cena anymore. He even pointed that out in his Money in the Bank promo. It's also bizarre that Cody Rhodes went from being the most hated man in AEW to vying with Seth Freakin Rollins (and in some places Sammy Zayn) for most over babyface in WWE.

It leads me to believe that there is a real split between AEW fans and WWE fans. There's not much crossover. Most people are either WWE fans or AEW fans. If Cody went back to AEW he'd be getting booed out of every building again and I can't see a guy like Cena bring popular in AEW either.

The WWE fans who used to hijack shows are gone, something Cena again reminded me of in his otherwise obnoxious promo. The current fanbase just seems to go along with whatever WWE wants. The more independent, occasionally rebellious, unpredictable, and highly opinionated fans that once forced WWE to make Daniel Bryan champion at Wrestlemania over Batista and Orton all left for AEW.

The kind of corporate, milk toast babyfaces that Cena and Cody are would not be well received in AEW, but mindless sheep WWE fans cheer for them.

Just some random thoughts I had while watching Money in the Bank

I was just thinking that this morning when I was reading your initial thoughts on MITB and you mentioned Cody's match with Dominic and that you aren't interested in Cody.

I always felt it was weird that Cody is so over as a babyface in WWE. I like Cody enough as a person, but Cody the character, particularly in WWE, is just so basic and one dimensional. He's just your stereotypical baby face. He even has the American flag tattooed on his neck for classic "I love America" babyface patriotism. He's basically just John Cena #2.

I guess maybe why John Cena got cheered so much is because it was in the UK and we'll eat any wrestling up at the moment. It's partly why AEW is actually probably going to sell out All In at Wembley. Lots of people were skeptical, but I said at the time, as someone from the UK, it would do well. And that's no reflection on AEW as a company. 65,000 tickets didn't sell to see Kenny Omega, MJF or any other AEW guy. They sold because it's a big wrestling show held by a major company. It's just that we rarely get any big wrestling events here and so we take any we can get. Plus you'll get people from mainland Europe hopping over here for it.

Speaking of that, I guess that's why WWE had to suddenly decide that they're going to hold a Wrestlemania in England and decide to start teasing it before All In is held

I like when WWE/AEW go to other countries. You really get a sense of the people appreciating getting to see a big wrestling show. I know the Saudi Arabia shows are a very touchy, controversial subject, but I tend to just focus on the people in the crowd. When I do, I just see wrestling fans happy to be at a wrestling show and I can get behind that.

I think the neck tattoo was one of many things that started to turn AEW fans against Cody. I find the patriotism from Cena super hypocritical. I remember sometime last year I think, where Cena made some video apologizing to China over some minor inoffensive thing that he said in an interview or something, and he even did the apology in Chinese. He got a lot of flak online for that as people kind of saw it as him groveling before China and things between China and the US have been tense for some time now. Anyway...

So I'm watching Stardom Mid Summer Champions right now and I'm a bit salty over Tam Nakano losing her White belt to this charisma vacuum Mirai. I shouldn't be that mad though, Tam still has the world title. I just feel like they are playing hot potato with the White Belt. Saya Kamitani had her long reign ended in memorable fashion by Mina Shirakawa. Then Mina lost it like a month later to Tam Nakano, which people thought was a questionable move, but the idea of Tam Nakano with two titles was pretty cool and there's no shame in losing the White belt to her. However, shortly after that Tam loses it to Mirai. Constant title changes make me feel like it devalues a title. It's the problem with the women's tag titles in WWE right now and the TNT title in AEW. I can't even remember who the current TNT champ is because it's change hands so many times. Plus, I think it makes Tam look weak as a world champion when she can't even hold onto a secondary title for more than like a month or two. I generally love what Stardom is doing these days, but the booking of the White Belt (which I guess is like their version of an intercontinental title) has been strange. Ironically, while I think a long reign is in order for the White Belt, I kind of don't want it to be Mirai. I'm still kind of a newb when it comes to Stardom and I'm still getting familiar with all of the talent, but she really doesn't do anything for me.

That said though, the match was fucking great. Mirai can really go, but that's never enough for me to like someone. Great wrestlers are a dime a dozen in 2023, I like people who also have charisma or a fun character. She seems rather bland to me. Those two ladies beat the shit out of each other though. Fantastic match. Also, kudos to top stars like Tam Nakano, Kairi, Giulia, and even Mercedes Mone. None of the women over there seem to have any problem putting someone else over.

The High Speed title match was more of an angle than a match, but boy did I enjoy the story they told there. Good stuff, I am becoming a big Saki Kashima fan. She has a certain "it" factor to her. She can draw you in to whatever she is doing. She's pretty attractive too, but I digress. And her theme song rocks, though I could say that about a couple people in Stardom. Between the music and the outfits, this company really nails presentation.

I also dug the Nanae Takahashi and Starlight Kid match.

Overall, a pretty solid show. I still have the main event to watch, a strap match I believe between Natsupoi and Saori Anou. That should be awesome. I don't know if it'll be able to compete with that memorable cage match main event from last weekend though. I also wish there was less turmoil in Cosmic Angels these days. It's my favorite faction but there seems to be a lot of infighting and people leaving. Not long ago Saori Anou and Natsupoi were on the same page and had trios titles, now they are fighting. I imagine things between Tam Nakano and Kairi could break down at some point too if Kairi decides to go after the world title.

[Raging Justice]

Okay, pretty great main event and I guess I got what I wanted. We got a united Cosmic Angels in the end. Fun show overall, and what happened with Utami Hayashista is pretty significant and newsworthy. To a lesser extant, so is what happened to Saki Kashima. Both events make for an interesting follow up to the events of last weekend's cage match main event. Again, I give Stardom credit for two back to back PPVs where shit actually happened. That said, WWE's Money in the Bank was the show of the weekend. The Bloodline Civil War main event is a match of the year candidate for me. I'd also say the same for the Queen's Quest vs Uedo Tai Cage Match from Stardom last weekend.

This was a fun two weekends of wrestling.

I need to catch up on recent TJPW shows to see what my girl Maki Itoh is up to. I don't really follow TJPW, but I do follow Maki and I guess she's back in Japan after doing some GCW shows here in the states. She's like the one Joshi I love who is NOT in Stardom. I feel like she never really got over with AEW crowds and it's sad that she rarely shows up there anymore. Her gimmick is either too weird or too silly for AEW fans I guess, but she gets mega over with indie crowds. Maki Itoh is like the perfect example of a character that is really, really, Japanese. Like I can imagine someone who is hooked on anime loving her because she feels like an anime character come to life, but she's sort of a tough sell to a mainstream wrestling audience.

I gotta say though, looking back on the potential of AEW back when it first started. It seemed like we would get a strong joshi presence on the women's roster. That never really happened, I wonder how much of that is due to Tony Kahn fully taking control of all the booking (supposedly Kenny Omega was big on joshis). It's something that I think would have made their women's division different from everyone else. Don't get me wrong, we've seen them do fun stuff with joshis, but it's like they never fully committed. Riho never really got a big push despite being their first women's champ. Shida never really got a great title reign as she held the title during covid lockdowns. A lot of other great joshi talent they got was largely relegated to AEW Dark shows on youtube, like Yuka Sakazaki, who is a big deal in TJPW but treated like a nobody in AEW.

Oh well, I like AEW, but a lot of the stuff that made them seem special early on, great stories, joshis in the women division, a thriving tag team division (sometimes I wonder if the trios title killed it), is largely non existent now. Even the dream scenarios, like the Forbidden Door shows, somehow haven't delivered the way I thought they would. Also, they've kind of wasted a lot of their big talent. Daniel Bryan never got pushed properly, the fact that people think his win over Okada is the first major win he's had in AEW is telling. It also doesn't help that Bryan has flipped back and forth between face/heel enough times to make your head spin. Adam Cole kind of feels like a nobody. Punk kind of self destructed, so I can't blame AEW for that one. Hangman wasn't booked or presented properly after he won the title. Plus, I think the beer drinking helped him get over and AEW dropped that. Hangman is still over, but he doesn't feel like the big deal he once did. This was the guy who was gonna be the face of the company. Jericho is still fun, but he's getting old, and he's never been quite as cool as he was when he was running the Inner Circle. The JAS is a pale imitation of the Inner Circle. He doesn't really feel like that big of a deal in that company anymore. The only guy I think AEW has handled well from day 1 is Orange Cassidy, and honestly, he feels like the biggest deal in that company right now in my opinion. He's arguably the most unique wrestler in mainstream television. I know some people hate him...but, well those people are idiots quite frankly. Sorry, just being honest. Cassidy to me is one of the most brilliant and refreshing characters in modern pro wrestling.

Another thing I think AEW lost is their creativity. They used to do some really fun and interesting segments with the Inner Circle and the first Stadium Stampede was absolutely amazing and unlike anything I'd ever seen in wrestling. Now a lot of their shows just feel like standard wrestling shows. They're not really thinking outside the box anymore and that feeling of "we're the alternative" is not as strong as it used to be. They are still different from WWE in some ways, but the difference doesn't feel as pronounced as it used to. Part of the problem I think is that WWE's product actually got pretty decent when Triple H started getting more power in the company, and while some say Vince is running things again, it still feels like he hasn't fully regained control just yet.

AEW doesn't really feel special anymore. AEW kind of feels now like TNA did years ago, a promotion that started out as a big deal then eventually lost steam. That said though, I don't see AEW ever reaching the lows in terms of ratings and attendance that we see now in Impact (formerly TNA), but it just goes to show that WWE will always be top dog and that's just the way it is. It's nice to have a successful number 2 though, and I think AEW's future is brighter than TNA/Impact, but I wish they could catch fire again. I think Reprise said they plateaued. That seems accurate.

Anyway, I'm done doing another one of my long, rambling posts I kind of wish this thread was more active, but it's not a wrestling forum. Sadly, some of the active wrestling forums I've seen online have a lot of pretty toxic people.

[marurun]

Sadly, some of the active wrestling forums I've seen online have a lot of pretty toxic people.

I feel like this bit right here could apply to any number of video game discussion spaces online as well, sadly. But I'm glad to see such active wrestling discussion here, even if it ain't for me. I kinda read it anyway just to see what people are into.

[Reprise]

Another thing I think AEW lost is their creativity. They used to do some really fun and interesting segments with the Inner Circle and the first Stadium Stampede was absolutely amazing and unlike anything I'd ever seen in wrestling. Now a lot of their shows just feel like standard wrestling shows. They're not really thinking outside the box anymore and that feeling of "we're the alternative" is not as strong as it used to be. They are still different from WWE in some ways, but the difference doesn't feel as pronounced as it used to. Part of the problem I think is that WWE's product actually got pretty decent when Triple H started getting more power in the company, and while some say Vince is running things again, it still feels like he hasn't fully regained control just yet.

I agree with this. You make a really good point that I hadn't really thought about. Back in 2020 AEW felt new and interesting, but a lot of that wasn't just that they were the new company that had started off with a bang, it was because they were trying new things. Part of that is possibly due to the pandemic which forced them to think outside the box (that first Stadium Stampede was amazing), but they have definitely lost some of that creative spark.

AEW definitely killed it in the pandemic era, whilst WWE really floundered. 2019 was already pretty rubbish for WWE, but 2020 was awful. It's only really since post-Mania 2022 that WWE really started getting decent again and that became even more obvious after HHH took over creative. There's still plenty that makes me roll my eyes or that I am not a fan of, but overall there's no arguing they have been putting on superior shows. I'd say the period from Summerslam/Clash at the Castle to Mania 39 is the strongest Summerslam to Mania period for WWE in years, if not decades.

I gotta say though, looking back on the potential of AEW back when it first started. It seemed like we would get a strong joshi presence on the women's roster. That never really happened, I wonder how much of that is due to Tony Kahn fully taking control of all the booking (supposedly Kenny Omega was big on joshis). It's something that I think would have made their women's division different from everyone else. Don't get me wrong, we've seen them do fun stuff with joshis, but it's like they never fully committed. Riho never really got a big push despite being their first women's champ. Shida never really got a great title reign as she held the title during covid lockdowns. A lot of other great joshi talent they got was largely relegated to AEW Dark shows on youtube, like Yuka Sakazaki, who is a big deal in TJPW but treated like a nobody in AEW.

I also agree with this. I think it was the first Double or Nothing that had a fantastic women's with Joshis and I thought at the time that was going to be how they differentiated their women's division from WWE's. I am not sure why they didn't push the women's division further and instead allowed it decline. I caught up with Collision yesterday and I don't there was a single woman's match on the whole card! Madness. Then again, I am not complaining when all we seem to be getting is Outsiders shit at the moment and it's getting repetitive.

Sadly, some of the active wrestling forums I've seen online have a lot of pretty toxic people.

I feel like this bit right here could apply to any number of video game discussion spaces online as well, sadly. But I'm glad to see such active wrestling discussion here, even if it ain't for me. I kinda read it anyway just to see what people are into.

I agree with both of these comments. I have joined a number of wrestling pages and groups on Facebook and Reddit and they are incredibly toxic and immature. Video games discussions are no different. The collecting community, in the UK, in particular is just horrendous. I am sad to see the decline in forums as online discussion spaces, The sense of community and identity is being lost and replaced with these large social media spaces that just don't encourage the interesting discussions that we get in forums like this.

[prfsnl_gmr]

I am sad to see the decline in forums as online discussion spaces, The sense of community and identity is being lost and replaced with these large social media spaces that just don't encourage the interesting discussions that we get in forums like this.

Amen