World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[Erik_Twice]

For example, I have a different view on the European Union. I am now pro-EU.

I find the idea that you can be Pro-EU while trying to seccede from your neighbour to be utterly laughable.

[Sload Soap]

For example, I have a different view on the European Union. I am now pro-EU.

I find the idea that you can be Pro-EU while trying to seccede from your neighbour to be utterly laughable.

Not that I'm on Adam's side or anything but why is it so laughable?

[Erik_Twice]

Not that I'm on Adam's side or anything but why is it so laughable?

Because the EU represents the opposite a seccession movement stands for. I mean, one of its goals is to eliminate all cultural, social, economical and political barries between its member states and, hopefully, turn them into a single nation.

There's also the fact that complaining about not having enough power in Westmister and wishing to join the bigger Brussels instead is pretty absurd.


I also don't think the seccessionists realize that there might not be an European Union after three of its member countries implode into pieces one after another. You can't imagine how fearful I am of that.

[Sload Soap]

Because the EU represents the opposite a seccession movement stands for. I mean, one of its goals is to eliminate all cultural, social, economical and political barries between its member states and, hopefully, turn them into a single nation.

There's also the fact that complaining about not having enough power in Westmister and wishing to join the bigger Brussels instead is pretty absurd.


I also don't think the seccessionists realize that there might not be an European Union after three of its member countries implode into pieces one after another. You can't imagine how fearful I am of that.

True although the unification of Europe was always a bit of a pipe dream. And from a Scottish point of view, as it stands they don't have a fair say at all. In the very least it'll be their choice whether or not to join the EU to begin with.

[ZeroAX]

A single nation and a federation are NOT the same things. Bavaria can be a part of Germany and have its voice and go to a part its separate way. Scotland on the other hand can not. Big countries shouldn't be centrally run.

The EU is trying to be a federation, not a single nation. So I don't see how wanting to be independent and in the EU are mutually exclusive things.

Besides if Scotland wants to stay in the EU it has a better chance of that outside the UK.

[Erik_Twice]

The EU should be about free market trade, freedom of travel and friendship between nations. We should be working together while respecting our cultural differences.

Your idea of what the EU should be is simply not in line with what the EU is and has been trying to be since its inception. It has and will continue to tackle more and more competences and override national sovereignty in an increasing number of matters.

The EU is not just an economic union, it's a political union. Denying that is just foolish. And it's an union in which the 4 million Scots will have far less influence on than in Westminster or the United Kingdom and will, in fact, still have to meddle with Westminster since the UK will still be in the EU.

It's out of the pan and into the burning fire.

Besides, we are not really seceding from our neighbour when we will be partners in the European Union.

"Becoming independant" and "seceding" are synonyms. Separation. Secession. Same thing.

Don't you believe in democracy?

Not particularly. I endure its shortcomings because every other political system is worse.

You don't sell your opinion very well when you bleat on about creating one single EU nation while belittling another nation for daring to have greater democratic rights and a stronger voice, not only within the EU, but in the world.

Nobody is belitting a "nation" whatever that means, I just find it ridiculous that a movement based on being different from your neighbour wants to join a movement based on exactly the opposite things and that already has that hated neighbour inside.

Besides if Scotland wants to stay in the EU it has a better chance of that outside the UK.

If Scotland leaves the UK, there might not be an EU to return to because Spain and Belgium would implode and even if it could go without those two (unlikely), the trust on the power of the Eurozone would vanish.

And if that's not the case, the UK, Spain and Belgium will simply veto the application forever. And it's not like the independentists want the EU so much anyways, one of the biggest talks right now is about keeping the pound and regional power. Fat chance.

[Sload Soap]

I do agree it seems foolish of the SNP boastfully declare that they will continue to use the pound when joining the Eurozone will almost definitely mean changing to the Euro anyway.

One advantage to being in the UK is we have enough power to opt out of things like that.

Edit: I don't agree that the UK will stop an independent Scotland from joining the EU though. And unlike some I don't believe this will lead to some sort of nationalist domino effect whereby every tiny province or city state angling for independence will get it. Is anyone in Venice, Flanders or Cornwall really mad enough to think they can go it alone?

[Ack]

Isn't Germany the real dominant player in EU politics these days anyway? That is usually how it seems to the US.

[Sload Soap]

Isn't Germany the real dominant player in EU politics these days anyway? That is usually how it seems to the US.

Right, but not so dominant they can force issues on a nation as influential as the UK.

[ZeroAX]

I don't think anyone is going to block Scotland either. It's going to be seen as too bullish. Besides Scotlandis one of our own, of we don't accept it, it's like we are giving ammunition to Russia.

And about the rest of the independence movements: all of them have been sparked by the economic crisis. And really the governments should be doing things to keep tensions down.

If the UK government had offered devolution they wouldn't be in this mess. But Cameron was so certain his blackmail over economic pain would keep Scotland in, that he didn't bother to provide a 3rd option on the referendum, regarding staying in the UK but getting more powers.

@Ack yes they are but they are weak leaders. Too indecisive and not willing to make the big decisions that real leaders do (case in point Greece: they neither kicked us out of the euro zone (the strict option) not saved us (the "makes sense economically" option") instead choosing a middle option that was the worst of both worlds for both Greece and the euro.

It's like the USA saying during the cold war that it was going to defend its allies against the Soviets, but be against stationing military abroad