What Constitutes an RPG

[MrPopo]

10. Items hidden in objects ex: jars, grass, barrels, rocks
15. Humongus super powered boss fights. (I can't think of super large bosses before Zelda)
16. Puzzle solving to complete dungeon
22. Dungeons hide useful tools, that help to finish said dungeon
23. Second quest after finishing game
32. Quest progression screen

I've removed everything from your list that I know is in Ultima (1980). There's a few that are left that might be in Ultima (I haven't played it much to be able to tell), such as items in objects, quest progression, and dungeon puzzles. Your Super Large Bosses one isn't unique to RPGs in any way; shmups started having large bosses before Zelda. And the second quest as implemented by Zelda is a pretty unique feature that you don't often see; the standard New Game+ doesn't count, as it's the same game with overpowered characters (and sometimes overpowered enemies, but the same enemies and attacks).

[pepharytheworm]

I am not saying each thing was pioneered by Zelda but what it is known for. Back on to music, do you know the first person to ever tap on a guitar? Van Halen gets credited with starting tapping not because he was first but because he popularized it. Zelda is very popular there's a better chance people got their first experience with those themes playing that game then others. Why did you buy Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy when they first came out? I bought them because I loved Zelda and they seemed the closest games I could get to Zelda at the time. Here's other games I consider rpgs really inspired by Zelda, not all the games I am listing other people consider rpgs you can go ahead and fuss about those too. I am only listing ones I have played.

Alundra
Beyond Oasis
The Legend of Oasis
LandStalker
Final Fantasy Adventure
Zoda’s Revenge: StarTropics II
StarTropics
Crystalis
Willow
Crusader of Centy
Neutopia 1 and 2
Golden Axe Warrior
Battle of Olympus
Ys Book I & II
Cadash
Defenders of Oasis
Crystal Warriors
Dark Arms
Ancient Ys Vanished Omen
Magic Knight Rayearth
Shining Wisdom
Illusion of Gaia
Soul Blazer
Ys III: Wanderers From Ys
Quest 64
Silver
Shining Soul 1 and 2
Brave Fencer Musashi
Dark Cloud 1 and 2
Musashi: Samurai Legend
Ys: The Ark of Napishtim
Orphen
Spectrobes
Summon Night: Twin Age

But I am done with this arguement. I just have a different view of what an RPG is than others. I am not trying to convice anyone that zelda is an rpg but if you guys want to think Zelda didn't at least inspire other rpgs, well then thats you and you can think whatever you want.

[AppleQueso]

Even still, the idea that Zelda "popularized" the use of top down perspectives and midieval settings is like claiming that Van Halen "popularized" the use of guitar amplifiers.

Those games (of the ones I've played) are very influenced by Zelda, I'm not going to argue that, but they comprise a minority when it comes to rpgs overall. The way you formulated your argument seemed to imply that a majority of rpgs took heavy influence from Zelda.

[pepharytheworm]

10. Items hidden in objects ex: jars, grass, barrels, rocks
15. Humongus super powered boss fights. (I can't think of super large bosses before Zelda)
16. Puzzle solving to complete dungeon
22. Dungeons hide useful tools, that help to finish said dungeon
23. Second quest after finishing game
32. Quest progression screen

I've removed everything from your list that I know is in Ultima (1980). There's a few that are left that might be in Ultima (I haven't played it much to be able to tell), such as items in objects, quest progression, and dungeon puzzles. Your Super Large Bosses one isn't unique to RPGs in any way; shmups started having large bosses before Zelda. And the second quest as implemented by Zelda is a pretty unique feature that you don't often see; the standard New Game+ doesn't count, as it's the same game with overpowered characters (and sometimes overpowered enemies, but the same enemies and attacks).

I was only listing common themes found in other rpgs that also zelda did. Of course zelda was inspired also by western rpgs, I can admit it. A lot of what I listed can be found in tons of different genres, I know, but most are common in a lot of rpgs.

[MrPopo]

I was only listing common themes found in other rpgs that also zelda did. Of course zelda was inspired also by western rpgs, I can admit it. A lot of what I listed can be found in tons of different genres, I know, but most are common in a lot of rpgs.

That's where your argument breaks down, however. Since the Western RPGs were first examples it seems more like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were inspired by those games, and not by Zelda. Zelda was also inspired by those games, so it's really sort of a divergence. It then converges again with the Seiken Densetsu series, which takes the Zelda action part and marries it with the RPG part.

[pepharytheworm]

Even still, the idea that Zelda "popularized" the use of top down perspectives and midieval settings is like claiming that Van Halen "popularized" the use of guitar amplifiers.

Those games (of the ones I've played) are very influenced by Zelda, I'm not going to argue that, but they comprise a minority when it comes to rpgs overall. The way you formulated your argument seemed to imply that a majority of rpgs took heavy influence from Zelda.

Please read my quotes again. I never said all rpgs were inspired by Zelda or only Zelda. I said

I still can't believe people don't at least think Zelda inspired other RPGs

How can people say Zelda has strong rpg influnces when it in fact influenced rpgs

I never said all rpgs are inspired or that RPGs wouldn't exist without Zelda. But will admit wrpgs did inspire Zelda also and jrpgs probably inspired later changes to newer Zelda titles. My second statement was made only to say why do people only think Zelda was influnced by and didn't influnce rpgs.

[MrPopo]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Zelda hasn't influenced ANY RPGs. I'm arguing that aside from games like Seiken Densetsu it seems more likely to me that Zelda and early JRPGs were instead both inspired by the same source, and they just branched in different directions.

When you make a statement like "Zelda influenced RPGs" that is a very blanket statement that implies a timeline where Zelda came first, then a bunch of RPGs came later that drew influence from Zelda. This is very true for the FPS genre; Doom influenced FPS's. I feel a better statement is that Zelda influenced a subgenre of RPGs.

[pepharytheworm]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Zelda hasn't influenced ANY RPGs. I'm arguing that aside from games like Seiken Densetsu it seems more likely to me that Zelda and early JRPGs were instead both inspired by the same source, and they just branched in different directions.

When you make a statement like "Zelda influenced RPGs" that is a very blanket statement that implies a timeline where Zelda came first, then a bunch of RPGs came later that drew influence from Zelda. This is very true for the FPS genre; Doom influenced FPS's. I feel a better statement is that Zelda influenced a subgenre of RPGs.

But what about Wolfestein?

Gamerforlife seems to think Zelda didn't inspire rpgs. If I am wrong and he didn't say that I apologize.


If I meant every single rpg I would have put "all". Whether its a sub group small or not matters little. If you infer my statement that "Zelda influenced RPGs" means every single one that came after thats your problem. Either way I am right as long as its more than one. I guess next time because people have to have everything specifically pointed out for them, I will say "The Zelda series influenced some jrpgs, mostly of the action variety, but was in turn influenced by wrpgs which also influenced jrpgs and action rpgs." is that good enough? Why is it if I don't word something the way you want it mrpopo thats all you focus on? Quit acting like you don't get what I am saying, I know you do. If you don't get what I am saying then I guess I give you too much credit.

Saying "Zelda influenced rpgs" is not implying it had to be first. Do you think things that are influnced by other things have to come after them? your telling me nothing new influences older games that have new versions in the series. If that was how everything was every genre would have a perfect definition and we wouldn't even be discussing this.
Lets make an example since you named Ultima, are you saying that none of the sequels of Ultima have been influenced by other games that came after Ultima did? Ultima may have intially influnced other works but in turn those works could also influence Ultimas.

I already stated what I meant by my words that I don't like people not giving credit to Zelda for influencing rpgs at least and thinking it was only influenced by rpgs and thats why rpg element are in zelda games. I already stated how I felt it was a two way street. So there is no point dissecting my words anymore for not being clear enough for you. And at that I am done, I am not going to talk anymore about this everyone already know my opinions on the matter, and if they don't because I wasn't "clear enough" I don't care.

[Gamerforlife]

You know what? This is all irrelevant, because even if it were true that Zelda inspired rpgs(and it's not), that doesn't change the fact that Zelda does not fit the mold of what the industry today considers an rpg. If you handed a Zelda game to a huge rpg fan who is not familiar with the Zelda series beyond name recognition, I think that person would be pretty pissed at you after playing it. He'd say, why doesn't it have levels or stats? Why is the story so shallow? Why is combat in real time with no strategic elements? Where's my party? Where are the random encounters? Why don't I have a huge inventory of weapons and items that each have different stats and abilities? Why is there so much damn puzzle solving?

Gamers have expectations of what they are going to get when they play an rpg and Zelda simply does not meet all those expectations because IT IS NOT AN RPG!!!!!!!!!!!

Grrrr.....I'm starting to feel like Lewis Black when he goes into one of his angry rants. I don't think I'm going to post anything further in this topic

[dsheinem]

Zelda is a goddamn ACTION RPG, according to Kotaku, who put this up today for our benefit:

http://kotaku.com/5546807/a-visual-guid ... aying-game