Osama bin Laden is dead

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Breetai
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Breetai »

dsheinem wrote:As I said earlier, and as anyone who researches for a few seconds could easily learn, we have DNA of Osama's sister (we have her brain, actually). I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if we release these DNA records to be independently verified at some point, if only to quit the inane clamoring of folks who want to find a conspiracy. Even then, it won't shut them up (just as the long form birth certificate won't stop birther idiocy).
I find that an acceptable answer to the DNA question I posed. I'm not a DNA expert at all, so I'm just assuming you can verify someone's DNA by comparing with a sibling by your word. I'm a skeptic by nature. Why should I believe what governments say at face value? The US gov't has never been fully honest with everything in the past. No gov't has, to the best of my knowledge.

Your other comments seemed... somewhat offensive.

When they captured and killed Saddam Hussein, everyone knew it. We clearly saw him. With Bin Ladin, we only have the word of a gov't at this point... which conflicts with various reports here and there has he has been dead for years. Maybe they really did just kill him. I'm still skeptical. I think it's healthy to be skeptical and ask questions.
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marballz
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by marballz »

benderx wrote:He just turned into a zombie and escaped from jail cemetery.
LOL!! oh man, you guys are funny. I love racket boy.
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Ack
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Ack »

Hatta wrote:I think the Birthers just need a new conspiracy theory. Isn't it just too convenient that this happens less than a week after the long form got released. Hey, where's Osama's death certificate?!
I agree, I find them just as bad as the "Bush did 9/11" argument.

From what I've been reading, this is the result of a long operation that has been running since 2007, in which a private courier in the Al Queda network was identified and slowly tracked down until being located in 2009 in Pakistan. From there he was traced to the compound in question in 2010, and the intelligence community slowly pieced together who was in the compound based on related intelligence until they decided that the target was either a high level Al Queda member, likely even Bin Laden. So President Obama weighed the options, had his chosen Seal team plan and execute several training operations in preparation, and then sent them in with orders to resolve the situation.

Ladies and gentlemen, this should show you something important: an operation like this takes time to research and follow through. Our nation's intelligence analysts have been following ever lead they could for a decade to locate Bin Laden, but this process is slow and painstaking. It has to be, otherwise mistakes are made. The Intel community in the US has been reeling for years after heavy criticism for rushing us into Iraq with the "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction" stint. So they take their time in working out his location, while double-checking to make sure they're not wrong. When they feel sure enough of themselves to act, the President gives the ok, and things get done.

Intelligence assessment is not and has never been an exact science. The United States government is not omnipotent, its security, intel, and defense organs are heavily constrained by the size of its budget, which is constantly being scrutinized by a public that doesn't understand anything about how that money might be used and constantly hounds for it to be lessened.

While the announcement of this may strike some of you as politically timed, I've already pointed out that this was an operation which took years to execute. President Obama may have gotten lucky in the timing (and he might not have, as the election is still more than a year and a half away), but this was not a political power card to keep him in office. If there is anything that strikes me about this as politically timed, it would be Leon Panetta's likely promotion from Director of the Central Intelligence Agency to Secretary of Defense in the wake of current Secretary Robert Gates' impending retirement, and I only say that because it may be a way of Obama expressing his opinion that Panetta did a good job.

As for jfrost's concern that civilians possibly being killed, I've heard several combatants were killed in the raid, along with two women. Last night the BBC said those women had been used by the combatants as human shields, but I haven't read any further reports about it. The US government lost a helicopter in the raid due to mechanical failure, but none of the special forces personnel were injured.

Some of you have expressed concern over Bin Laden's organization carrying on without him, and it will. Bin Laden hadn't been releasing information since 2007, so it's likely he had little to do in Al Queda's regular operation anymore. But with the recent waves of protest and government toppling in many predominantly Muslim nations, along with the ongoing US withdrawal from Iraq, Al Queda's relevance to the modern Muslim world is likely fading. Yes, some militancy will continue, but many nations are looking to their own problems and deciding how they will change or develop their own governments and national identities. With Bin Laden dead and the Afghan Taliban supposedly urging peace and cooperation, it's possible the US will soon be drawing down its forces in Afghanistan as well. Libya...well, Libya's another matter that I feel very unsure of, but we'll see how that goes.

Oh, and President Bush's Mission Accomplished speech was related to the fall of Saddam Hussein and the defeat of his Iraqi military forces. In terms of conventional warfare in Iraq the speech was accurate, though the Iraqi Insurgency soon followed, prolonging the US combat mission in the nation almost indefinitely. Both former Presidents Bush and Clinton have released statements about the death of Bin Laden and congratulating President Obama.
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dsheinem
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by dsheinem »

Breetai wrote: When they captured and killed Saddam Hussein, everyone knew it. We clearly saw him. With Bin Ladin, we only have the word of a gov't at this point... which conflicts with various reports here and there has he has been dead for years. Maybe they really did just kill him. I'm still skeptical. I think it's healthy to be skeptical and ask questions.
I agree skepticism is healthy when circumstances warrant, but paranoia is not. I guess I don't see a reason to be skeptical at this point, given the information we have, given that no one who might be able to disprove the claim has come forward, etc. I can't recall this or any other administration lying about this kind of news, and so my skepticism is held at bay until I see a convincing reason to be skeptical. Political "convenience" is not a convincing argument.

Also, it looks like there are pictures of the corpse, but the White House is debating their release because they are gruesome.
XxBroBuzzxX
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by XxBroBuzzxX »

Dylan wrote:
YoshiEgg25 wrote: The president's just started speaking, and he's just confirmed bin Laden is dead.
Wow, anybody else see the xfinity commercial play over the president's speech on NBC? Somebody's going to get the axe for that...
Fuck Xfinity. Their ads also remove the ESPN ticker. <_<


On a much more light hearted note:
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Breetai
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Breetai »

dsheinem wrote:Please understand that I am mostly railing against a mindset and a popular discourse that I see as hanging around the fringes of your remarks. I think it smacks of idiocy, even though I know none of you are idiots. I am merely asking you to raise the level of conversation to something above what passes for conspiracy baiting...if you have some legitimate claims that can be made with actual substance to them, I would welcome them.
Hey, no worries. I tent not to take everything at face value. If you did, you'd be unknowingly lied to a lot. I've read the official US gov't version of things. I know the predominant conspiracy theories. Some of them make sense, to varying degrees. That does not mean they are true, just they they seem plausible (sometimes!). Go somewhere like Alex Jones' site. A lot of what he says (well, whoever writes for him) makes a lot of sense... but some of it is also just ignorant and poorly researched. I mean, he had David Ike at his site a lot. If you took what he said and believed it, you'd be thinking that reptilians disguised as humans are walking among us. :roll: Yeah...

So, I read these things that question the "official" stories and relay some of the things that make sense to others to see their take. The DNA thing I brought up is a good example. If the US does have Bin Laden's sister's DNA to compare it to, and that is a legit comparison, then that question is answered. It gives more credence to the official story and I learn more in the process.

Besides, if we all took whatever the media fed up and believed it outright, we wouldn't have these interesting threads!

Why DID they dump the body so quickly? That very question was asked on a government-run Canadian radio station earlier today. These are important questions to ask if we are to understand things.
Also, it looks like there are pictures of the corpse, but the White House is debating their release because they are gruesome.
Yeah, I heard of them last night. The "conspiracy theory guys" are already saying that they could have been faked, or even taken years ago when he "actually died."
Last edited by Breetai on Mon May 02, 2011 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Limewater »

Hatta wrote: Personally, I think this is good news, but not worth the price we paid to hear it.
Really? When was his trial? You must hate freedom and justice.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by dsheinem »

Breetai wrote: Why DID they dump the body so quickly? That very question was asked on a government-run Canadian radio station earlier today. These are important questions to ask if we are to understand things.
And easy to answer. Islamic tradition requires burial in 24 hours. If we had not done this or had otherwise desecrated the body, it would have been taken as an affront to Islam, and not just to bin Laden.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Hatta »

Breetai wrote:Go somewhere like Alex Jones' site.
Or on the other hand, please don't.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by AppleQueso »

Hatta wrote:
Breetai wrote:Go somewhere like Alex Jones' site.
Or on the other hand, please don't.
Alex Jones is terrible...
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