Feel like arguing? Come in

[RemyC]

I win! Har har har.

I got the impression that the purpose of this discussion wasn't so literal.

I believe the opening post went something like, "Story is the most important part of a videogame. This is 100% true......"

Personal preference is certainly a personal choice. I will forever lean toward the gameplay/mechanics. When I am in the mood for a videogame, I want to learn a system of controls, and test my reflexes, or discover a strategy to take down a boss.
I have never purchased a game based on it's story. The cut-scenes just get in the way of saving the world.
I still say that people that choose their games based on story are silly.
Audio and visuals add all the background atmosphere that I need. I could make up my own story as I play the game, if I really wanted to.

[RCBH928]

Flashman85 wrote:
I got the impression that the purpose of this discussion wasn't so literal.

I believe the opening post went something like, "Story is the most important part of a videogame. This is 100% true......"

Actually , the purpose of this discussion was not so literal ,for real. I obviously know that without gameplay it is not a game. It is my fault to use that kind wording, but you will have to forgive me because English is not my first language and my arsenal of words are not as vast.

A lot of you keep saying that story is the plot. I do not think of it that way. I think story is everything. Even graphics and sound contribute to the story. For example, we all know the happy melody from Ocarina of Time, can you imagine if that was hard metal music? Would it make the same impact? But the happy jumpy tune gives another dimension to the story that makes you live the atmosphere of Link's forest village.
I give you another example, imagine reloading your gun in COD5 put out a "quack" sound. It will be silly wouldn't it? Ok so it is a gun, what if I put one of those lazer shooting sound effects to it, like the pink needle gun in halo? It would still be silly, but the real sound effect gives you the atmosphere of reality in the COD series, and that is another way sound contributes to the story.

Even graphics contribute to the story. Do you think if COD2 used cell shaded graphics for a world war game, it will work out? Why did they chose the realistic graphics? Ok , let the enemies have big afro hair , now that would be completely silly for a game about the world war. No one would take that game half seriously if they did. Can you imagine if RE5 taking setting in Africa, but they are running in a city full of skyscrapers and chines people hunting for you? Now you can't tell me skyscrapers and the looks of your enemies is part of the gameplay too? Its part of the setting, which is part of the story.

Maybe level design is tied to gameplay, but it is not gameplay. I think it is also tied to the story. The story is more than the plot , I say it one more time.

Seriously, I never saw a game recommended , without being iconic in story or character in any way. I came to realization that puzzles and sport games has gameplay as more important, but that is about it. Oddworld, Comix Zone, halo , MGS , Mario...at least most of them. Like in Mario 64, gameplay is fun but the idea of jumping into pictures , collecting stars, talking to little mushroom guys, the castle, the garden , the ghosts.

Almost all of you are saying if you want a story go read a book or watch a movie. But what if I want to live that story? We all have seen the people who imitate tv/cartoon heroes , superman and the likes. We also have seen a lot of kids and adults wanting to be Harry Potter or they want to be Braveheart (you can do it indirectly by playing something like a medieval game), and games give you that option of living a fantasy life or being that character. Its fun and we all enjoy it.

If you don't care about the story, that's one thing, but story and gameplay aren't mutually exclusive; story can be more important than gameplay without gameplay dropping out of the picture altogether. Otherwise, we should be making the argument that graphics are the most important part of any game, because if graphics aren't the most important thing, then there are no graphics at all and you can't see anything. And that just doesn't make sense.

I'm looking at this from a broader perspective of what contributes the most to the distinctiveness and/or appeal of a game. This is kind of like asking what the most important aspect of a girlfriend is: some people think looks are the most important; some people think it's personality; but you sound like the kind of person who would say, "breathing, with a pulse." Fundamentally, yes, but I got the impression that the purpose of this discussion wasn't so literal. Perfectly valid point, though.

I love the way you argue, I should let you do all the talking for me. You have the exact kind of idea I have in my mind about games.

[RemyC]

A lot of you keep saying that story is the plot. I do not think of it that way. I think story is everything. Even graphics and sound contribute to the story.

Story by definition, would be the script, or the progression of events.
The audio and visuals, give off the atmosphere of a mystical forest, or a medieval castle, or being at war.
These can all be present within a game, without the story. Judging by all your examples I believe the word you are looking for is, atmosphere.

Do you think if COD2 used cell shaded graphics for a world war game, it will work out?

If it still had the same gameplay and mechanics, yes. The developers chose "photo realistic" graphics, because they are trying to stay true to the theme of the game. Before it had "photo realistic" graphics, it was a wire frame. They could have left the game like that, and it would still be fun (Extreme, yes, but it gets the point across).

Now you can't tell me skyscrapers and the looks of your enemies is part of the gameplay too? Its part of the setting, which is part of the story.

I've cleared this up a dozen times: Everything is focused around the gameplay/mechanics.
I've played doom, and had all the imps replaced with energizer bunnies...its still the same game. The labels don't matter....the story was the exact same. Story is irrelevant. You are talking about the atmosphere.

Maybe level design is tied to gameplay, but it is not gameplay. I think it is also tied to the
story

It has a stronger impact on the gameplay, than it does the story.
Before they are dressing up the staircase with the medieval carpet, they are saying, "How big should the steps be, so that the character can climb up them?" Everything is designed around the gameplay and the mechanics. After everything is functional, they dress it up for the story.
Yes, audio and visuals affect the atmosphere. However, they have nothing to do with the story.
Level design is first designed around the gameplay and mechanics. THEN they'll decide how to set the atmosphere.

Seriously, I never saw a game recommended , without being iconic in story or character in any way.

These people don't realize that gameplay is what they are actually enjoying.
I could design a game with your favourite hero in it, but he'll/she'll just sit down the entire game sipping tea. NO huge adventure, no anything. The presence of a character doesn't matter, if you cant control them the way you would like to. Or, have come to appreciate.
I bet if the next Ninja Gaiden game were a turn-based RPG, their would be riots in the street. OH, but it's continuing the story of, The Dark Dragon Blade. I'd grab a plane down to the Team Ninja Building in Japan and break everyone of their knees (Extreme, but it gets the point across).
Gameplay is what matters, not story.

[marurun]

Y'know, I think we all can easily manipulate definitions to make our points. Gameplay can be either very specific or very encompassing. Story can either be very narrow (plot only) or very broad. I still believe that the gameplay, meaning controls, physics, and core game engine and environment design, is usually the defining factor of whether a game is generally considered fun or good. But that doesn't mean story doesn't play a role and isn't important. Story is critically important for certain types of games and not for others.

And in the end, we're all going to have to agree to disagree, because we can't even agree on exactly what we're talking about, really.

[RemyC]

Y'know, I think we all can easily manipulate definitions to make our points.

But why would we? lets keep this honest.

Story can either be very narrow (plot only) or very broad.

Story is the narrative. It could encompasses the characters, and themes of the game. However, it never really affects the play of the game. Which is ultimately why I believe it is insignificant.

Story is critically important for certain types of games and not for others.

Argue! Where is the strong defense?
I have yet to see proof of games where the story is critically important. Maybe, Carmen Sandiego, but in that example, the story becomes the gameplay...with the story being pieces of evidence.

we can't even agree on exactly what we're talking about

Should we clarify? I don't know if everyone has grown weary of this thread. I am thoroughly enjoying it.

[elvis]

Y'know, I think we all can easily manipulate definitions to make our points. Gameplay can be either very specific or very encompassing. Story can either be very narrow (plot only) or very broad. I still believe that the gameplay, meaning controls, physics, and core game engine and environment design, is usually the defining factor of whether a game is generally considered fun or good. But that doesn't mean story doesn't play a role and isn't important. Story is critically important for certain types of games and not for others.

This is pretty much the point I was going to make.

I think "gameplay" is the most important factor. It's important to note that "gameplay" is a broad term, and heavily dependent on genre. When you look at a fighting game or a shmup, "gameplay" has little to do with the story (sorry, but I think the Street Fighter series story blows compared to something like King of Fighters, however SF is my preferred franchise, and I just don't enjoy KoF due to the gameplay). "Gameplay" here is the mechanics of the moves, combos, larger strategy, etc. Yes, there's story there. But honestly, it's of little consequence. I've heard people compare fighting games to a modern version of chess (two players, equal move sets, highly strategic play). Like chess, you can make up any back story you like about the characters (chess started as war-strategy training, after all). But the gameplay (mechanics, et al) are the key factor.

Compare and contrast to an RPG. "Gameplay" there is heavily dependent on a good story. All the good battle mechanics in the world won't save an RPG with a boring/confusing/shallow plot. It makes it awfully hard to play a role in a role playing game if the story isn't there to help.

I would say people who weight the story higher than anything else are doing so as a side effect of preferring genres that utilise story as a part of the overall gameplay (again, RPGs, or some of these epic third person action games appearing en mass lately). Those of us who love our arcade style fighters and shooters can happily pass on story (I play plenty of shmups where I wouldn't even have a clue what the story was, nor do I ever care to find out).

So the argument is not that story is "less important", but merely that it's an aspect of the gameplay, dependent on the genre.

[RemyC]

It's important to note that "gameplay" is a broad term, and heavily dependent on genre

I do agree, but also note that throughout all my arguments, I have specified what about gameplay/mechanics makes it so important. As well that I believe that in ANY genre and ANY game. I believe that whatever makes up their gameplay, is far more important than the story.

Compare and contrast to an RPG. "Gameplay" there is heavily dependent on a good story. All the good battle mechanics in the world won't save an RPG with a boring/confusing/shallow plot. It makes it awfully hard to play a role in a role playing game if the story isn't there to help.

I disagree with everything that you have said here.
The only reason why I walk around and explore so much within an RPG is to find hidden items that will aid me in battle. I dont walk around town talking to everyone, because I'm interested in their back stories. I want to battle. A good battle system will save an RPG with even the worst story. The battles are where the game shines.

[elvis]

I'll add the caveat that I don't play RPGs, and as such am probably talking through my hat when it comes to them.

[marurun]

RemyC, you seem to be a little TOO determined to come out right. But I'm leaning toward this truly being a matter of both perception and opinion. Every element of game design, in some fashion or another, leans on every other element. Even if a story is added later it will have consequences for the game design and some changes will be made to accommodate it. So while I happen to disagree with kingmohd84 in his very broad definition of what story means to the game and game design, it can't be denied that it does have an effect. And frankly, we're at the point in this discussion where minds will not be changed, so there's really not much point in dragging it out.

Our definitions vary. Our perceptions vary. Our opinions vary. That's sufficient for me. I've read the explanations of why people think the way they do and I'm satisfied. I still think what I think but now I know what others think.

[RemyC]

RemyC, you seem to be a little TOO determined to come out right

The title IS, "Feel like Arguing..."
Marurun, you seem a little too passive.
My issue is that I believe that I have had a legitimate counter argument for everything that has been said against me, but no one seems to acknowledge it.

Every element of game design, in some fashion or another, leans on every other element.

Gameplay/Mechanics are a shiny pinnacle that stand tall and proud for all the other elements to rest on. Story lays flat kissing its feet.

So while I happen to disagree with kingmohd84 in his very broad definition of what story means to the game and game design, it can't be denied that it does have an effect.

It is almost impossible to not have a story. It is possible to remove the narrative all together, and just have a loose chain of events occur (which can be argued still make a story). So, OK. Yes, story does have an effect...a very minimal and almost obsolete effect.

My final standings for importance:
1. Gameplay/mechanics
2. Visuals
3. Audio
4. A properly designed instruction manual.