What are you playing?

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Exhuminator
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Exhuminator »

Xeogred wrote:Did you use fire on the Phalanx? Goes down real fast.
Yes, because just before I got to the boss, I started getting turpentine salves like crazy. I figured the frequency drop of those just before the boss surely had something to do with the upcoming fight.
Xeogred wrote:What about Berserk in earlier games?
Hidetaka Miyazaki has directly stated in interviews that Berserk was one of the primary influences for Demon's Souls, so you're on the money.
Xeogred wrote:Exhuminator can discover that all for himself unless he has specific questions.
The only thing I'm wondering about right now, is if I should continue Boletarian Palace (as in 1-2, 1-3, etc.), or if I should go hit up the other worlds (like beat 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1) first. Maybe it'd be better to do each worlds in sequential tiers like 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-2, 5-2, 1-3, 2-3, 3-3, 4-3, 5-3, etc.?

One last question (to anyone not just Xeogred), if you had to order the Souls games (i.e. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne) from hardest to easiest, what order would you choose?
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isiolia
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by isiolia »

You can continue with 1-2 if you like. You won't be able to move on to 1-3 after the boss though, as there's a wall that requires you to get an arch demon kill under your belt before it'll let you through.
Other than that, you can do the world sequentially, or you can jump between them. The latter might make more sense if/when you know about specific things to grab. Personally, I just did them more or less in order, outside of revisiting certain ones for NPCs. Were I to replay it, I would bounce around a little more.
One last question (to anyone not just Xeogred), if you had to order the Souls games (i.e. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne) from hardest to easiest, what order would you choose?
Well, the common logic is that the hardest one is whichever one you play first. They're very subjective, to be sure.

My take, offhand...

Bloodborne chalice dungeons
Bloodborne: The Old Hunters
Dark Souls II DLC
Dark Souls III DLC
Artorias of the Abyss
Dark Souls II (albeit usually in annoying ways) = Dark Souls III
Dark Souls
Demon's Souls
Bloodborne

More or less, as they've progressed, more enemy/boss design has become aggressive, and less likely to have a gimmick (which is fairly common for DeS). DS2 and on also have a tendency to get patched or rebalanced, whereas DeS and DS1 have mechanics that remain broken.
Bloodborne, the base, main game is more or less front-loaded. It can be brutal at first, but push through the first few real bosses and you'll probably find that the rest of the game is downhill.
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Xeogred
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Xeogred »

My suggestion Exhuminator on Demon's Mega Man level select, I tend to do them kind of sequentially but if you're struggling at a boss, go do other levels and then come back to it again later. Probably just an obvious suggestion haha, the same philosophy works for the other Souls games if you're at a part with branching paths, or just other games in general. Sometimes helps to take a break from a tough part and go back after awhile fresh.

Your other question is a bit too hard to answer because these games are just so free form and the experience can vary so wildly. My first run with Demon's back in the dark ages when it was obscure, I did some pansy shileld + spear build and man it was lame. But I beat it. Dark Souls on the other hand made me feel crippled in a sense, I had some ultra lame dex/katana build going and was constantly struggling. Didn't even beat it with that character and I can't really remember how long I went before touching Dark Souls again. In fact, I think I beat Dark Souls 2 first and then went back. Very strange. Maybe I sucked ass at these and the learning curve was ultra slow to sink into me, but hey now I have platinums for all of them except Dark Souls 1 (it has lame max weapon / per element type trophies and farming crap), so I got good?

The magic happened when I played Dark Souls 2 and went heavy on a STR build and basically only focused on 3-4 stats, then I mained smaller greatswords like a Bastard Sword / Claymore. After doing that... when I went back to both Demon's and Dark, I kind of annihilated them. Dark was a bit bottom heavy with the beginning being tougher, but I kind of breezed through the second half, even through a lot of the new content I didn't reach on my first failed character.

Bloodborne was a cake walk. And this is pre major patches Bloodborne before it got even easier, and they upped story inventory limits, etc. Was Bloodborne a cake walk because it was not my first? I have no idea man. All the games blend in similarly to me now and each have their ups and downs with some difficulty spots. Like above, I say I cake walked through Dark Souls 1 on my second attempt, but the final boss was still fucking insanity and took an easy several dozens worth of tries.

Dark Souls 2 is the easiest for me by far yet some people think it's the hardest, or that Scholar edition dramatically changed things and I digress. Yet... then Dark Souls 2's DLC has a multitude of some of the hardest moments and bosses in the franchise. But yeah, vanilla Dark Souls 2 was SO easy for me it's at the point where I just can't really understand how people struggle with it haha, but many do apparently.

And then I say Bloodborne was a cake walk, but isiolia is right in that the chalice dungeons (had some unique bosses/enemies/trophies) were definitely harder than the base game. And then, to get the platinum you have to get up to NG+++ or something and with that character is how I went into its DLC. From start to finish, every single enemy/boss in the DLC killed me in about 2 hits. I saved all the boss fights with PS4's share feature which is awesome, they're on my youtube. So Bloodborne was both some of my easiest and hardest moments ever with these games. I was stuck on one DLC boss for a week or so. Then one boss I ragequit for a year before going back to it after beating Dark Souls 3 last year and finally got 100% trophies again on Bloodborne. The DLC was Dante Must Die hard because of my fault entirely, yes, if I did not go in with my NG+++ character it would have been much easier. But I wanted the challenge, didn't want to do another character, and you generally have to be a bit into the campaign to access the DLC in these sometimes.

I plan to play the Dark Souls 3 DLC with my platinum NG+++ character so that will be interesting too.

If there's one thing for sure, Demon's seems to be one of the hardest ones with the first NG+ jump. Dark Souls NG+ sounds intense too. But otherwise, NG+ in these and even stacking through the playthroughs, they tend to just get easier honestly. Chances are you probably don't care about trophies or replaying these, so this might not all mean anything. I still haven't done Dark Souls 1 NG+ but that's what I hear, it's serious and tough. That's how I will replay it someday. I lost track of where my last Demon's character is on to get that platinum haha, NG+++++ or something.

Also Demon's and Dark Souls 1 are the most unforgiving with checkpoints. They tend to have the longest/toughest treks to get to bosses. But in Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne especially, it was kind of lame how there were often some bonfire/checkpoints very close to some bosses.

Having gone through them a lot and gotten some platinums, here is how I would rank them now:

Bloodborne DLC (because of NG+++)
Dark Souls 2 DLC
Dark Souls AND DLC (both the final boss for the base and DLC were some of the hardest bosses for me)
Bloodborne Chalice Dungeons (optional)
Dark Souls 3
Bloodborne
Demon's Souls (maybe because I know it perfectly now)
Dark Souls 2 AND Scholar Edition (played and beat both, got the platinum on Scholar)

I like how the games have a different flavor:

Demon's = Mega Man level select
Dark 1 = large open areas Metroidvania
Dark 2 = best hub with four big main branching paths
Dark 3 = very linear (that's not a complaint)
Bloodborne = intricate smaller areas Metroidvania

Sorry for the ramble dude.
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Kuruwin
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Re: What are you playing?

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Xeogred wrote:The obvious tip is to take on enemies one at a time.

What about Berserk in earlier games? Demon's especially is chalk full of references and even weapons. Medieval fantasy settings don't always jive with me, but of course From does dark fantasy the best and it's perfect. Boletarian Palace is one of my favorite areas in all the games. Tower Of Latria is God tier though.
(too bad Berserk went full on high fantasy in the second half and I hate it now, so does the creator anyways. It will never be finished).

Was there a character called Patches in any other From games? He's all over these. :wink:

Going to try to refrain from any tips or even the tiniest hints about the mechanics and such for now so Exhuminator can discover that all for himself unless he has specific questions.
I haven't read Berserk in years but i agree that towards the end of the Ganishka arc it started to really feel like Miura lost his edge. I kinda gotten impression that things have been improving lately but i don't know if i want to go through years of bad content and like you said Miura probably is never going to be able to finish the series at this rate. I fully expect him to kick the bucket before that happens.
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isiolia
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Re: What are you playing?

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I've actually been meandering through DS1 NG+ this weekend, and so far it really hasn't spiked up in difficulty noticeably - though my intent is to build up casting more to try that, and additional levels have been slow.
You can pretty much shut down the main game end boss if you can parry (something Miyazaki even noted in the Art Works interview). DLC end boss, for me, was one where using an appropriate shield was very effective (Artorias's :lol: ).

I can see where you're coming from with DS2 - my second playthrough with a basic STR build (with a 1h mace) was substantially easier than using magic. However, I think it has a tendency to be cheap on a fairly routine basis, and Adaptability just makes it feel "off" until you've pumped points into it. So while DS3 is probably legitimately harder, it's more often a good challenge with a lot of conveniences (short runs back to bosses, very readily available consumables, etc).


Also, the final boss of the DS3 DLC has a good bit of resemblance to Guts. Well, at least in terms of weapon choices and all.
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Re: What are you playing?

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Oh I see how it is isiolia... you're one of those "just parry the final boss" guys. :lol:

Hehe, one of my friends and others say that too. I just couldn't get it down man! Gwyn didn't seem like someone that should have given me that much trouble but he did.

Fuck Manus!

I forget about Adaptability until someone mentions it. I know it's a hot topic, but I don't know dude. I got the platinum and paid basically no attention to that stat. I think I put a few points into it, but people going down the intricate frames rabbit hole to me is just kind of funny. Each game feels just a little bit different so I guess I kind of just adjusted to it and that was that for me.

It also probably helped that I started experimenting (luckily with success) on hybrid builds when I got to DS2, mainly doing STR/Faith with lightning scaling stuff and a spell or two. Kind of a shame magic got nerfed so hard in DS3 haha, I beat NG with a STR/Int build and it was pretty crap, respec-ted to STR/Faith and instantly handled things better. So ... Faith Lightning Spear Sunbros 4 Life.

@Exhuminator: What kind of build or focus you rocking anyways? Magic can be crazy OP in Demon's haha. Magic isn't my style in these at all but I think it might be fun to try and play one of these with a magic build someday (which would inadvertently be a challenge for me since it's so not my playstyle).
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Exhuminator
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Re: What are you playing?

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Xeogred wrote:@Exhuminator: What kind of build or focus you rocking anyways? Magic can be crazy OP in Demon's haha. Magic isn't my style in these at all but I think it might be fun to try and play one of these with a magic build someday (which would inadvertently be a challenge for me since it's so not my playstyle).
I'm a male soldier, with a soldier shield, and a scimitar+2. I've leveled up my Strength, Endurance, and Luck quite a few times. I have no magic, I don't even know how you get magic in this game let alone use it.

So tonight I went through 1-2, being very annoyed at that damn dragon, but was doing just fine till I hit this guy:

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I like how you said it's best to fight enemies one on one, yet that is unlikely in Demon's Souls. For example, when you reach this boss, there are like a dozen archers surrounding him pinging you from all sides. I mean just fighting a giant tower knight that can take 3/4ths your life away with one hit isn't enough, gotta throw some troll archers in there too. Anyway, I managed to take out all the archers, but the boss got me.

So then I went on to 2-1, and did OK, until I got to the fire salamanders. Those stupid things don't even leave souls when they die, they're just there to ignite your ass. Anyway, they took me out twice in a row, cost me about 2500 souls. I was perturbed.

Then I went to 3-1, and was immediately killed by what I can only assume was an illithid.

So in about 3 hours of playing, that's what I did, although I grinded up some souls in 2-2, and gained a few levels and a few pieces of decent gear.

One thing that really aggravates me is the inconsistency of the parry maneuver. It seems random as hell if it's going to work or not. Also the back-stab attack seems completely arbitrary too. It's hard to rely on skills like that when they're so fickle in execution.

Something this game desperately needs is dismemberment and decapitation gore, it would have added so much to the combat. I mean there's already the Havok Physics engine going on, that could have easily handled the gibs. Missed opportunity.

And yes the checkpoint system in Demon's Souls sucks ass. From what I can tell, you only get a checkpoint when you kill a boss. You're pretty much guaranteed to die the first time you fight a boss, so you lose your souls right there. And then you get stuck in a cycle of soul reclamation / loss until you finally kill the boss. I don't think it would have made the game too easy to just give the player a checkpoint before a boss, given how long the stages are already.

Anyway, I'm going to have to figure something out with my doofy little soldier guy. I shouldn't be turned into meat paste from just one hit of that tower knight's attack. It seems like From Software designed this game so that you would constantly grind for souls in order to gain levels, raising your stats. I know people say you can beat this game completely naked with just a twig between your fingers, but that's only applicable to someone who's already put hundreds of hours into it. On a more realistic note; it's clear From Software intended for grinding up souls and slowly eking out more powerful stats until you overcome a boss, rinse repeat. Obviously stats matter or they wouldn't be such an integral part of the game design.
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Re: What are you playing?

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I can't help but giggle a bit, since Exhumy Senpai's takeaways from Demon Souls have been so similar to how mine were when I first played it. :lol:

I can even distinctly remember getting to Tower Knight, being like, "holy shit..." When there's the cutscene that shows not only him, but the jester guy behind him and then ALL those archers. I was very much expecting some sort of deus ex machina to drop out of the sky to equalize the fight in SOME way but NOPE. Ran forward and got immediately insta-gibbed.

Alsoooo, about the dragon who's so annoying:
He can take damage like any other enemy! If you had a LOT of arrows, maybe something would happen ;) ...
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Exhuminator
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Re: What are you playing?

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PartridgeSenpai wrote:Alsoooo, about the dragon
I figured I could kill the dragon, once I shot it with an arrow, and its life bar went down 1/100th. I'd just need about a hundred arrows and a ton of patience to whittle it down to death. Or just dodge its flame gauntlets as I've been doing, which is more time effective.
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isiolia
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Re: What are you playing?

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Xeogred wrote:Oh I see how it is isiolia... you're one of those "just parry the final boss" guys. :lol:

Hehe, one of my friends and others say that too. I just couldn't get it down man! Gwyn didn't seem like someone that should have given me that much trouble but he did.
The first time I beat the game, I doubt I could have parried him - I brought in Solaire (though figuring out how to have him available on NG, without a guide or prior experience seems unlikely, I'd looked up NPC quest stuff because I knew it was easy to miss).
Second time though, with most of the other games under my belt, parrying was realistic (the same was true for Bloodborne's "final" boss). I think you can even trigger the parry-able attack by using Estus, similar to keeping Fume Knight in his first stage.

I would tend to agree with the sentiment I've seen elsewhere though, that Gwyn has no happy medium (well, short of summoning help). Either you can parry him, and he's trivial...or you can't, and he's very difficult.

Parrying is another thing that DS2 borks, come to think of it.
Xeogred wrote:Kind of a shame magic got nerfed so hard in DS3 haha, I beat NG with a STR/Int build and it was pretty crap, respec-ted to STR/Faith and instantly handled things better. So ... Faith Lightning Spear Sunbros 4 Life.
It got nerfed pretty hard in DS2 as well, though I never wound up respeccing in my first playthrough where I tried to go that route. I did wind up using INT scaling weapons though, which I also used for a fair amount of Demon's Souls.

Exhuminator wrote: I'm a male soldier, with a soldier shield, and a scimitar+2. I've leveled up my Strength, Endurance, and Luck quite a few times. I have no magic, I don't even know how you get magic in this game let alone use it.
You can buy and/or trade certain items for spells from NPCs that end up in the Nexus when you find them. Souls games have spell slots that depend on a particular stat (INT in DeS, Attunement in the others), determining how many you can set - in DeS, you can "remember" spells by talking to an appropriate NPC, IE, one you can learn sorcery from for sorcery (the other games have Attune Spells as an option at bonfires). Equip an appropriate weapon, usually a catalyst or talisman, and using standard attack will cast the spell you have selected.

DeS and DS3 (effectively) have an MP bar, DS/DS2 have set uses per spell a la D&D.
Something this game desperately needs is dismemberment and decapitation gore, it would have added so much to the combat. I mean there's already the Havok Physics engine going on, that could have easily handled the gibs. Missed opportunity.
To be fair, even DS3 lacks facial animation, so intricacies like that just probably aren't in scope. Nioh has heads a flyin' though >_>b
And yes the checkpoint system in Demon's Souls sucks ass.
Totally agree. I mean, there are usually decent shortcuts to open up, but some of the initial runs are arduous to say the least. It's something that later games do address, as bonfire/lantern placement tends to be less structured.
The runs to the final bosses of each area do tend to be pretty short though, so, there is that.
Anyway, I'm going to have to figure something out with my doofy little soldier guy. I shouldn't be turned into meat paste from just one hit of that tower knight's attack. It seems like From Software designed this game so that you would constantly grind for souls in order to gain levels, raising your stats. I know people say you can beat this game completely naked with just a twig between your fingers, but that's only applicable to someone who's already put hundreds of hours into it. On a more realistic note; it's clear From Software intended for grinding up souls and slowly eking out more powerful stats until you overcome a boss, rinse repeat.
Obviously stats matter or they wouldn't be such an integral part of the game design.
Bosses have a tendency to at least have an attack or combo in their arsenal that's like that, if not most/all of them. It's one reason I like to push HP up early, as it gives a much more generous margin for error. You didn't mention Vitality as something you'd put points into, though Stamina (via Endurance) is also key.
IMO, pushing up damage stats early (other than to meet base requirements for weapons) isn't as effective. You get better gains for much less cost by upgrading the weapon itself, and/or by using weapons that don't have stat scaling early on. By the time that slows down, chances are, you can comfortably swap over to putting points into damage stats.

Regardless, it's not realistic to out-level content, though you can certainly make it relatively easier. It's just never the case that you can become nigh invincible or anything.
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