This gen. is over . Do you hold highly any console?

[Hazerd]

Im a Hardcore RPG player, i need to talk to EVERY NPC!

[Jmustang1968]

Im a Hardcore RPG player, i need to talk to EVERY NPC!

Cmon man that's not hardcore there is no challenge and depth to NPC talking. It also can't be hardcore if it was released in the last 8 years just because.

[Damm64]

At least we can all agree that those terms are pretty much useless.

[isiolia]

That's gamer lingo 101. Give me a better summary of the term or STFU.

Casual: without planning, incidental, irregular, lacking serious intent or commitment.

That's English.

It's less a label for games and more a label for the approach players have to them. I'd go so far as to say you could approach different genres or platforms casually, while being more dedicated to others.

Regardless, the more appropriate term would be "casual-friendly", indicating a game that is accessible to that kind of incidental gamer. Quite a lot of games can start there, and continue to support more dedicated players as well. Tetris is casual-friendly. Beating world records for it, however, takes a substantial amount of dedication.

[Hazerd]

Im a Hardcore RPG player, i need to talk to EVERY NPC!

Cmon man that's not hardcore there is no challenge and depth to NPC talking. It also can't be hardcore if it was released in the last 8 years just because.

Ok, i admit it, im not hardcore....

[Jmustang1968]

Seriously? The hardcore vs casual discussion has spilled onto this thread to with menegro spewing the same narrow sighted definitions of what is hardcore?

Games that are extremely challenging and/or have a very high learning curve=hardcore. Too challenging for most players.
Games that are very accessible and non-challenging=casual. No learning curve what so ever, just about any one can play these, including people who don't even play video games normally.
That's gamer lingo 101. Give me a better summary of the term or STFU.

PS: It's not "hardcore vs casual". Hardcore and casual are classifying terms as much as genres. Some games are hardcore. Some are casual. Some games are adventure games, some are SHMUPs. There's no versus situation between the two, they're just terms used to describe the design and content of the game, like dividing RPGs into subgenres such as ARPG and SRPG.

You keep posting the same shit and narrowly defining a term that has a broad meaning with no consensus. So no, I think everyone is wanting you to stfu about your 5 paragraph hardcore ramblings.

[Menegrothx]

That's gamer lingo 101. Give me a better summary of the term or STFU.

Casual: without planning, incidental, irregular, lacking serious intent or commitment.

That's English.

I said lingo, not dictionary English.

It's less a label for games and more a label for the approach players have to them. I'd go so far as to say you could approach different genres or platforms casually, while being more dedicated to others.

And where did I argue otherwise? Some games are hardcore, most aren't. Some games are only hardcore if you play them in a certain way (competitive PvP, tournaments, playing on hard mode, killing optional bosses or trying to get 100% completion or all achievements in some games, depending on the game).
We're arguing about what constitutes a hardcore (or a casual) game, not whose a hardcore (or a casual) gamer. Those two are different things.

Regardless, the more appropriate term would be "casual-friendly", indicating a game that is accessible to that kind of incidental gamer. Quite a lot of games can start there, and continue to support more dedicated players as well. Tetris is casual-friendly. Beating world records for it, however, takes a substantial amount of dedication.

See above. 99% of games are neither hardcore nor casual like I said, there are all those different shades of gray I mentioned

You keep postinf the same shit and narrowly defining a term that has a broad meaning with no consensus.

Again, I don't see you coming up with a better definition, so either nut up or shut up.

I might understand your point if we were arguing about the meaning of some rarely used, high level game design term like "ludonarrative dissonance", but the term hardcore and casual are, like I said, basic gamer lingo. If you play video games and participate in the hobby on a more broad level (read forums, articles, watch youtube videos, hang on IRC channels etc), you know what those terms mean. They are well established terms.
Even outside video games, the term "hardcore" often refers to something that requires a high level of commitment, and as such is above the abilities of the majority. And casual is the opposite of that, "lacking serious intent or commitment", as defined in English dictionary. What does the term hardcore entail in this context then? High skill requirement, high learning curve and high commitment (in other words time consuming tasks that most player aren't willing to do).

If you want the dictionary definition, it's this
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... /hard-core

noun

1the most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement:there is always a hard core of trusty stalwarts [as modifier]:a hard-core following

2 (usually hardcore) [mass noun] popular music that is experimental in nature and typically characterized by high volume and aggressive presentation.
pornography of a very explicit kind: [as modifier]:hard-core porn

3 [mass noun] British broken bricks, rubble, or similar solid material used as a filling or foundation in building.

"The most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement.
And who are the most "active and commited" gamers? Those people who play a wide variety video games (people who are according to me, hardcore gamers), and those who are really commited to individual games and genres (which often means competitive gaming and "hardcore gaming": either playing hardcore games, or completing tasks that could be considered hardcore in "non-hardcore games", really time consuming achievements, optional bosses etc). Yes, I do know that definition also includes people who put a lot of time and effort into playing "casual" or non-hardcore games, but we are are arguing about what's a hardcore game, not whose a hardcore gamer and second of all that there is the official dictionary definition of the term which is not 100% same as the one being used in video game context.

[Jmustang1968]

As I already said, I am not offering a narrow definition as I don't think there is one. It is an overly used word thrown around that has different implications to different people. Maybe that is what hardcore means to you but you are trying to focus something too obtuse and broad.

[Ack]

I believe that Jmustang is arguing the terms casual and hardcore are so widely used as to hav lost their meaning or to have developed a more subjective meaning. Menegrothx is arguing that the terms apply to specific games, but some of what Jmustang points out is how it is used in reference to the players and not the games. Jmustang doesn't see the game as hardcore, he sees the player that way. Menegrothx seems to be arguing the exact opposite, where the game is hardcore, not the actual player.

That said, this argument can be done without the phrases "STFU" and "nut up or shut up." Such terms are pulling down the conversation.

[Menegrothx]

As I already said, I am not offering a narrow definition as I don't think there is one.

You say that my definition is simultaneously narrow and too broad, interesting choice of words there. One word can have multiple meanings. A broken analogue perhaps, but there is an insane amount of different kinds of electronic music. Even if you specify "electronic dance music", that label covers an incredibly diverse range of music. Point is, there are different types of hardcore games and "hardcore gaming" that are vastly differ from each other. The a feature that they all share though: the very high commitment level, which like I said, is divided to 3 different factors.
What can't be defined by semantics or in any exact way is when something is demanding enough to be considered hardcore, but like Sarge said it:

"I know it when I see it."

When you're knowledgeable and experienced enough, you can tell when something requires above average commitment, whether it's getting into X68000 imports or doing over 400 actions per minute in Starcraft. Indeed to define individual cases, you're going to need the consensus of the community. That's really the measuring stick here: those who are committed to the hobby, or " most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement" as wikipedia put it.

It is an overly used word thrown around that has different implications to different people.

It has different implications in different contexts. That doesn't change the meaning of the word itself. A slow paced strategy game can be hardcore the same way a super hectic bullet hell, FPS, fighting game or a RTS is.

That said, this argument can be done without the phrases "STFU" and "nut up or shut up."

That's what people who are hardcore say


I would not use such phrases if JMustang1968 provided a better example himself. If you criticize my definition and call it narrow-minded (when my definition of the term covers many styles of genres and types of gamers, and is apparently too broad because of it), then you better show me a better one.