Final Fantasy 7-- over-saturated? Over-rated? You decide.

[sabrage]

Or... you could not play it like that. Do you play other games on easy mode and then complain about them being too easy? That's basically what you are saying here.

I disagree. If you know the most efficient way through a game, why wouldn't you take it? There would always be this nagging feeling, like "There's a better way to do this, and I'm not doing it." It's one of the reasons I hate mechanical spoilers in threads like these so much.

[MrPopo]

Or... you could not play it like that. Do you play other games on easy mode and then complain about them being too easy? That's basically what you are saying here.

You mean not play it by utilizing the basic character development of the game? All I was doing was equipping the best weapons and armor I had access to (the various magic junctions) and as a result spent little time in random battles. It wasn't like I was using the card everything so you never get exp strategy for a true low level runthrough. It was just a consequence of the game giving you the best gear so early (magic) that makes the game so easy.

[Jmustang1968]

Or... you could not play it like that. Do you play other games on easy mode and then complain about them being too easy? That's basically what you are saying here.

I disagree. If you know the most efficient way through a game, why wouldn't you take it? There would always be this nagging feeling, like "There's a better way to do this, and I'm not doing it." It's one of the reasons I hate mechanical spoilers in threads like these so much.

Then you just ruin the intended challenge and fun. This is similar in reference to playing 'sim' in sports games that comes up all the time. You have some guys who will take advantage of ai or coding deficiencies to have money plays or advantages not found in the real sport. Then you have communities where guys play 'sim' and stay true to the spirit of the game and avoid the glitches or exploits.

In the end, it is whatever is fun for you. If I have a way of breaking a game, I usually avoid it as it will kill my fun. I enjoy games much more playing them as the developer intended or with a semblance of a challenge...

[MrPopo]

If I have a way of breaking a game, I usually avoid it as it will kill my fun. I enjoy games much more playing them as the developer intended or with a semblance of a challenge...

See, there's a difference here. Let me illustrate with FFII vs. FFVIII.

In FFII the way you are expected to level up is that if you're being attacked you'll gain more HP, if you dodge attacks you'll gain more dodge, and if you attack you'll gain more strength and weapon skill. You can grind that up like any RPG by finding mobs that only use physical attacks if you're trying to level up your physical defense, or mobs that spam magic if you're trying to level up your magic defense. This is intended use of the game mechanics. Unintended use and breaking of the game mechanics is realizing that if you attack your own characters you level up faster than if you let monsters do it (not to mention the select and cancel bug).

By contrast, FFVIII starts off broken. The intended use of the game mechanics is that you junction magic to your stats, and you'll eventually junction the magic that gives you the biggest bonuses for each stat. They effectively replaced the traditional system of finding/buying new armor and weapons with junctioning magic. However, the massively dropped the ball with regards to the pacing of what magic you can get, which leads to being able to have mid-late game stats very early in the game. And what really makes it egregious is the leveling enemies. If I recall right, only a single enemy has a minimum level (a bonus boss), while everything else will be at the same level as you. The intent seems to be to combat grinding levels, but they ended up going too far. Gaining a level gives you very little in the way of stats, and monsters don't drop gil, so there is no incentive to fight random battles. So now you're fighting weak monsters with your own very high stats. Now, to cap it all off, you have the limit system that they tell you activates when you're at low HP. But low HP is defined as a percentage. The law of large numbers says that a percentage of a large number is still a large number, so while sitting at 1000 HP might make you technically at critical HP it doesn't matter if enemies are dealing 20 damage a hit. The limit breaks are supposed to be a risk/reward system in VIII, but because all the other game mechanics are so broken you end up with no risk and all reward.

[Jmustang1968]

If I have a way of breaking a game, I usually avoid it as it will kill my fun. I enjoy games much more playing them as the developer intended or with a semblance of a challenge...

See, there's a difference here. Let me illustrate with FFII vs. FFVIII.

In FFII the way you are expected to level up is that if you're being attacked you'll gain more HP, if you dodge attacks you'll gain more dodge, and if you attack you'll gain more strength and weapon skill. You can grind that up like any RPG by finding mobs that only use physical attacks if you're trying to level up your physical defense, or mobs that spam magic if you're trying to level up your magic defense. This is intended use of the game mechanics. Unintended use and breaking of the game mechanics is realizing that if you attack your own characters you level up faster than if you let monsters do it (not to mention the select and cancel bug).

By contrast, FFVIII starts off broken. The intended use of the game mechanics is that you junction magic to your stats, and you'll eventually junction the magic that gives you the biggest bonuses for each stat. They effectively replaced the traditional system of finding/buying new armor and weapons with junctioning magic. However, the massively dropped the ball with regards to the pacing of what magic you can get, which leads to being able to have mid-late game stats very early in the game. And what really makes it egregious is the leveling enemies. If I recall right, only a single enemy has a minimum level (a bonus boss), while everything else will be at the same level as you. The intent seems to be to combat grinding levels, but they ended up going too far. Gaining a level gives you very little in the way of stats, and monsters don't drop gil, so there is no incentive to fight random battles. So now you're fighting weak monsters with your own very high stats. Now, to cap it all off, you have the limit system that they tell you activates when you're at low HP. But low HP is defined as a percentage. The law of large numbers says that a percentage of a large number is still a large number, so while sitting at 1000 HP might make you technically at critical HP it doesn't matter if enemies are dealing 20 damage a hit. The limit breaks are supposed to be a risk/reward system in VIII, but because all the other game mechanics are so broken you end up
with no risk and all reward.

I wasn't so much talking about you as I was commenting on what sabrage said... I haven't played VIII in so long that I dontreally remember the mechanics.

[dunpeal2064]

My first play through of VIII I did as a solo Squall run, simply because the game is that breakable.

VIII's battle system: walk around at low heath and 1-shot everything.

Its one thing when a game is breakable, but you really have to work at it. This game just hands everything to you, and almost everyone is breakable with very little work.

Or... you could not play it like that. Do you play other games on easy mode and then complain about them being too easy? That's basically what you are saying here.

What? There is a difference between breaking a game, and a game being piss-easy. Everything was breakable in it.

Sure, I could no-junction clear the game, but at that point, I am having to force difficulty on myself. Thats stupid.

Why would I NOT use limit breaks when they are so available? Why would I not summon unlimitedly? Why would I not?

I would literally have to just attack everything to make the game hard, and then it would be even more boring than it was.

The game IS easy mode. And it sucked.

and FWIW, I play games on their hardest mode and complain that they are too easy

[mobiusclimber]

Oh, I see but all the other stories where barely teenagers and a small handful of their friends run around randomly fighting weird creatures, who for some odd reason have pockets full of money and items they drop when killed, then fight bigger monsters (bosses), half of which have nothing to do with the plot, until they finally fight the ultimate baddy who was plotting the world's demise and save the entire universe from ruin, make perfect sense? Pretty much all rpg's have absurd stories with questionable plot twists. And, similar to religion, they all require you to suspend logic and reason.

All video games do this, so you're saying it's impossible to find flaws in the logic of a game's plot, or point out plot holes? We should just say "fuck it" when a game starts throwing complete crazy crap at us b/c Mario eats a mushroom and gets bigger and eats a flower that makes him spit fireballs? Dude, come the fuck ON! I hate when people make this ridiculous argument. It makes game criticism irrelevant.

The problem with a game like FF8 (and we're getting worse and worse as games get closer and closer) is that the more realistic they look, the more realistic you expect them to be (which is why RPGs are really struggling with their game mechanics in the current gen). But there are certainly things I would expect every game to not do. This thing happened solely b/c the scenario writer backed himself into a corner and had no way out of it (see: colliding with space ship in vast vacuum of space).

[dunpeal2064]

The problem is, while some games are not believeable, they can still be entertaining.

VIII had a pretty shit story, that very rarily entertained, extreamly dull characters that never changed, and a plot that was just laughable.

It does look better than VII, and it had great music, but I don't think I've ever cared less about the majority of my party.

Like I said before, its one thing when you have to really delve into a game to understand how to break it, but when they give you an instant kill that works on almost everything, and allows you to use it at will, thats not breaking a game, thats just poor design.

VI was breakable, and I still loved that game, because playing it for the first time, I did not know I could break it. In VIII, I broke the game by just playing it! No grinding, no crazy junctions, no hidden overly-difficult side-quest. Just played it and it broke.

[dreamcast4ever83]

I have no idea what everyone is talking about: (this is just my opinion not meant to insult anyone)

shit story: It was fantastic and full of emotions sure it was not perfect but it was one hell of a ride!

to easy: It was not that easy at all and you do need to grind a bunch. I'm wondering if someone who says this has even played though the whole game or just watched videos. If it was really that bad you would not have finished the game.

To each there own but ff8 gets to much slack and always by people who only like the old snes one's and 9 which they only like cause its more like the old one's. I think there all great for the most part although i was not a huge fan of 12.

Sure there may be flaws but 7 and 9 also have flaws and loopholes and many others. Lets not forget this is a video game and meant to be a fantasy world. not everything is meant to be logical and or perfect.

I think the world of gamer's have become harsh and overly critical and expect to much. When were kids its great imagination and as adults everyone becomes so cynical

[MrPopo]

I have no idea what everyone is talking about: (this is just my opinion not meant to insult anyone)

shit story: It was fantastic and full of emotions sure it was not perfect but it was one hell of a ride!

There was a nugget of an interesting idea but they managed to completely cock up things. It feels like they were writing the detailed scenario as they were making the rest of the game and realized midway through that they backed themselves into a corner and had to pull some bullshit out.

to easy: It was not that easy at all and you do need to grind a bunch. I'm wondering if someone who says this has even played though the whole game or just watched videos. If it was really that bad you would not have finished the game.

Yup, played through the whole game as a solo Squall. No grinding required or recommended. And I never said the gameplay was bad, simply that it was easy to break and become a physical god.

To each there own but ff8 gets to much slack

Too much slack means that people were letting FFVIII get away with its flaws, rather than pointing them out.

Sure there may be flaws but 7 and 9 also have flaws and loopholes and many others. Lets not forget this is a video game and meant to be a fantasy world. not everything is meant to be logical and or perfect.

Yes, but not to the degree that VIII had. Internal consistency is a big thing that contributes to the enjoyment of a constructed world. When stuff keeps getting pulled out of the writer's ass it feels very shoddy.