That's interesting that so many people feel guilty about SotC. The colossi aren't even human. I actually felt like the world of SotC was so barren that the colossi existed only to be killed. It's not like they had families to go back to.
Does anyone feel guilty when they play Civilization? If you go the conquest route, you'll be killing thousands of virtual people, even wiping their culture off of the face of the Earth. If I were the type to get emotionally involved in fiction, I'd have a lot more trouble with Civ than SotC.
Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
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BoringSupreez
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
Hatta wrote:That's interesting that so many people feel guilty about SotC. The colossi aren't even human. I actually felt like the world of SotC was so barren that the colossi existed only to be killed. It's not like they had families to go back to.
Does anyone feel guilty when they play Civilization? If you go the conquest route, you'll be killing thousands of virtual people, even wiping their culture off of the face of the Earth. If I were the type to get emotionally involved in fiction, I'd have a lot more trouble with Civ than SotC.
Civilization is one game where I have no problem being a jerk. I love turning the whole map blue, or red, or whatever color I am. My favorite tactic is to be nice early on, build up a huge army in the modern age, launch a fleet of ICBM's, and then try to take over as many countries as I can before the game ends.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
This reminds me. There was a board "game" called "Train" where you run a train company.
Then they tell you that you were transporting jews to be killed. Yay!
Other than making people feel bad without any reason for it and getting a very well deserved punch in your face I fail to see the point of it.
PD:Isn't there an english words for that kind of "art"? The "artsy crap" kind? There must be one.
Then they tell you that you were transporting jews to be killed. Yay!
Other than making people feel bad without any reason for it and getting a very well deserved punch in your face I fail to see the point of it.
PD:Isn't there an english words for that kind of "art"? The "artsy crap" kind? There must be one.
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Gamerforlife
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
Tecmo Deception series
I remember one level in Kaegero Deception 2 where you brutally murder innocent people(they really aren't any deaths in the game that AREN'T brutal). The Deception series has always been very grey. Not everyone you kill deserves it. Wrong place, wrong time and you're expected to keep playing with no remorse
I remember one level in Kaegero Deception 2 where you brutally murder innocent people(they really aren't any deaths in the game that AREN'T brutal). The Deception series has always been very grey. Not everyone you kill deserves it. Wrong place, wrong time and you're expected to keep playing with no remorse
RyaNtheSlayA wrote:
Seriously. Screw you Shao Kahn I'm gonna play Animal Crossing.
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BoringSupreez
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
General_Norris wrote:This reminds me. There was a board "game" called "Train" where you run a train company.
Then they tell you that you were transporting jews to be killed. Yay!
Other than making people feel bad without any reason for it and getting a very well deserved punch in your face I fail to see the point of it.
PD:Isn't there an english words for that kind of "art"? The "artsy crap" kind? There must be one.
Was this game called "Train" made in Germany in the 40's, or was it just some lame attempt at making a board game gruesome?
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
BoringSupreez wrote:Was this game called "Train" made in Germany in the 40's, or was it just some lame attempt at making a board game gruesome?
The later. And they only tell you the theme after you have finished playing it.
So yeah....
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JoeMushashi
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
it kinda depends on the mood/setting of the game I suppose.
CoDMW2 had a level in an airport...if you've played the game you know what I'm talking about. I hated that level and almost turned the game off...
but a game like GTA or Crackdown I can drive on a sidewalk full of pedestrians with no problem. In Fable I turned against my hometown and killed everyone in it without blinking an eye (After becoming the Hero of Oakendale).
The only other game that ever made me feel guilty was Blood Omen 2:Legacy of Kain for some reason draining the blood from innocent ladies caused a twinge of regret in me. That's the first time I can remember feeling guilty over something I've done in a game.
this is an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up!
CoDMW2 had a level in an airport...if you've played the game you know what I'm talking about. I hated that level and almost turned the game off...
but a game like GTA or Crackdown I can drive on a sidewalk full of pedestrians with no problem. In Fable I turned against my hometown and killed everyone in it without blinking an eye (After becoming the Hero of Oakendale).
The only other game that ever made me feel guilty was Blood Omen 2:Legacy of Kain for some reason draining the blood from innocent ladies caused a twinge of regret in me. That's the first time I can remember feeling guilty over something I've done in a game.
this is an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up!
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Balasubbie
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
BoringSupreez wrote:General_Norris wrote:This reminds me. There was a board "game" called "Train" where you run a train company.
Then they tell you that you were transporting jews to be killed. Yay!
Other than making people feel bad without any reason for it and getting a very well deserved punch in your face I fail to see the point of it.
PD:Isn't there an english words for that kind of "art"? The "artsy crap" kind? There must be one.
Was this game called "Train" made in Germany in the 40's, or was it just some lame attempt at making a board game gruesome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Brathwaite
It was an attempt at art-gaming by the lady above.
Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
From the discussion so far, I'm trying to piece out what it is that the game designer does that actually makes us feel a sense of guilt.
The emotion of guilt is almost always the result of violating one's own personal values or behaving in a way that is inconsistent with one's own self concept. Because everyone's values are different, we won't all feel the same guilt for each gaming moment. More importantly though, it is hard to make people feel like they have violated their personal values when they are only acting in a virtual world. The game has to either subtly (or unsubtly) break through the fourth wall to convince us that we have done something we shouldn't have, or the game needs to create an investment in the virtual world and attachment to its characters that the player ends up feeling bad for the in-game consequences of their actions.
It seems so far that the most popular choices for guilt enducing games are Modern Warfare 2, Knights of the Old Republic, and Shadow of the Colossus. I think these games each use a different technique for creating player guilt.
The first technique is to have the character do something so extremely awful that the player feels uncomfortable with what they are seeing and doing. The "No Russian" level of Modern Warfare 2, where the player is expected to shoot up an airport of helpless civilians, is simply something so horrible that we don't even feel comfortable acting it out. While I haven't actually played the "No Russian" level, watching it on YouTube did make me feel like I was observing something morally reprehensible, and imagining myself in the player's shoes makes me think that would leave me feeling fairly uncomfortable knowing that I played through the level willingly. Likewise, my guilt experiences with Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer and Manhunt were also promoted by the extreme nature of the character actions. I think what makes extremism work in these cases is that they worm their way across the fourth wall and get the player to imagine he/she is actually taking on the mindset and behaviors of the morally reprehensible character and there is a sense of real world violation of one’s values by taking on these so clearly wicked beliefs, which leads to guilt in cases where it seems inappropriate to even consider things such as torturing and murdering innocents. This was also the case when Gnashvar mentioned Shin Megami Tensei games and how they make him feel like he is actually going against God. I imagine some of you felt this way when attempting a dark side run of KOTOR as well.
The second technique is to give the player a choice that has in-game consequences. This is where Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic really excels, particularly if you play the game through multiple times with different choices. This gives the player an opportunity to see that their actions have consequences. While there are gross oversimplifications of moral decision making in these games that force good vs bad choice points, I appreciate that they create a sense of responsibility by allowing choice to affect outcome. It’s hard to feel guilt, if you don’t also accept responsibility for your actions. As I mentioned in the start of this thread, I'm really interested in strategies for making players feel guilty because this could improve these moral choice games and allow for more subtle forms of moral reasoning and consequence.
The third technique is to get a player attached to characters and then force them to harm the characters they care about to push the story forward. This would at first appear to be the absence of choice, but there is a subtle movement across the fourth wall again because of course the player always has the choice of not playing at all, so they do still hold some responsibility for their actions. GLaDOS makes this tactic explicitly clear: she wants you to care about the companion cube so that she can later force you to destroy it as criteria for your continued success. This technique is also more subtly used in Shadow of the Colossus. You are aware from the beginning that you must kill all 16 colossi to bring your true love back to life, thus establishing that each kill is for selfish interest, since the colossi are not being killed to remove a threat, but solely as a means to an end. There is no other choice in the game other than to kill the colossi if you want to move the story forward. The colossi are presented as powerful and majestic creatures; and as the sole inhabitants of the land, appear to be the owners of their territories, which you unceremoniously invade. They are formidable and strong and your only way to defeat them is by sneaking around to attack their weak points, which seems underhanded, but arguably fair given the size difference between you and them. What SotC does so beautifully though is to never give you a clear sense of victory with each kill. The music is somber as a colossus falls, it looks sad as it topples to the earth in a heap, and your character suffers a sort of spiritual death after each colossus he kills wherein he absorbs the inky black shadow veins of the fallen beasts and falls to the ground, only to wake up again back in the statuary where he began and is reminded of his selfish purpose to bring his love back to life. The player doesn’t need to be given a choice to feel guilty. The designer can for the player’s hand and still make him/her feel bad by simply setting up an unethical criteria for success in the game and never letting the player take any pleasure from those successes that don’t come coupled with reminders of the negative consequences of their bad deeds.
The emotion of guilt is almost always the result of violating one's own personal values or behaving in a way that is inconsistent with one's own self concept. Because everyone's values are different, we won't all feel the same guilt for each gaming moment. More importantly though, it is hard to make people feel like they have violated their personal values when they are only acting in a virtual world. The game has to either subtly (or unsubtly) break through the fourth wall to convince us that we have done something we shouldn't have, or the game needs to create an investment in the virtual world and attachment to its characters that the player ends up feeling bad for the in-game consequences of their actions.
It seems so far that the most popular choices for guilt enducing games are Modern Warfare 2, Knights of the Old Republic, and Shadow of the Colossus. I think these games each use a different technique for creating player guilt.
The first technique is to have the character do something so extremely awful that the player feels uncomfortable with what they are seeing and doing. The "No Russian" level of Modern Warfare 2, where the player is expected to shoot up an airport of helpless civilians, is simply something so horrible that we don't even feel comfortable acting it out. While I haven't actually played the "No Russian" level, watching it on YouTube did make me feel like I was observing something morally reprehensible, and imagining myself in the player's shoes makes me think that would leave me feeling fairly uncomfortable knowing that I played through the level willingly. Likewise, my guilt experiences with Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer and Manhunt were also promoted by the extreme nature of the character actions. I think what makes extremism work in these cases is that they worm their way across the fourth wall and get the player to imagine he/she is actually taking on the mindset and behaviors of the morally reprehensible character and there is a sense of real world violation of one’s values by taking on these so clearly wicked beliefs, which leads to guilt in cases where it seems inappropriate to even consider things such as torturing and murdering innocents. This was also the case when Gnashvar mentioned Shin Megami Tensei games and how they make him feel like he is actually going against God. I imagine some of you felt this way when attempting a dark side run of KOTOR as well.
The second technique is to give the player a choice that has in-game consequences. This is where Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic really excels, particularly if you play the game through multiple times with different choices. This gives the player an opportunity to see that their actions have consequences. While there are gross oversimplifications of moral decision making in these games that force good vs bad choice points, I appreciate that they create a sense of responsibility by allowing choice to affect outcome. It’s hard to feel guilt, if you don’t also accept responsibility for your actions. As I mentioned in the start of this thread, I'm really interested in strategies for making players feel guilty because this could improve these moral choice games and allow for more subtle forms of moral reasoning and consequence.
The third technique is to get a player attached to characters and then force them to harm the characters they care about to push the story forward. This would at first appear to be the absence of choice, but there is a subtle movement across the fourth wall again because of course the player always has the choice of not playing at all, so they do still hold some responsibility for their actions. GLaDOS makes this tactic explicitly clear: she wants you to care about the companion cube so that she can later force you to destroy it as criteria for your continued success. This technique is also more subtly used in Shadow of the Colossus. You are aware from the beginning that you must kill all 16 colossi to bring your true love back to life, thus establishing that each kill is for selfish interest, since the colossi are not being killed to remove a threat, but solely as a means to an end. There is no other choice in the game other than to kill the colossi if you want to move the story forward. The colossi are presented as powerful and majestic creatures; and as the sole inhabitants of the land, appear to be the owners of their territories, which you unceremoniously invade. They are formidable and strong and your only way to defeat them is by sneaking around to attack their weak points, which seems underhanded, but arguably fair given the size difference between you and them. What SotC does so beautifully though is to never give you a clear sense of victory with each kill. The music is somber as a colossus falls, it looks sad as it topples to the earth in a heap, and your character suffers a sort of spiritual death after each colossus he kills wherein he absorbs the inky black shadow veins of the fallen beasts and falls to the ground, only to wake up again back in the statuary where he began and is reminded of his selfish purpose to bring his love back to life. The player doesn’t need to be given a choice to feel guilty. The designer can for the player’s hand and still make him/her feel bad by simply setting up an unethical criteria for success in the game and never letting the player take any pleasure from those successes that don’t come coupled with reminders of the negative consequences of their bad deeds.
Last edited by J T on Thu May 12, 2011 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fastbilly1
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Re: Are there any games that have made you feel guilty?
JT, in my case, it was because after she lost the fight there is nothing you can do to keep her from becoming a whore. It was the feeling that no matter what you tried to do, her path was set and you could not change it. That is a terrible feeling and one that I was surprised a game could give me.