Game Boy not so Advanced

[pepharytheworm]

Here we go again.

[NeoTechni]

I never said anything to imply my opinion on ds wasnt subjective
and i guarantee you i have tried ds rythym games, 2 are on my site! Another one is the cutest game I mentioned previously (Pinky Street). I paid over $150 for Oshare Majo
I have tried Ouendan, there is one just like it on PSP actually it plays just fine with buttons.

I agree that adventure games like Sam and Max would be better on a touch screen, but I don't think they'd be suited to such a small one.

Yes the touchscreen could be used better but it hasnt in general. I wasn't saying every game hasnt since I obviously havent played them all as that'd be impossible. But if you could find games that used it as well as the Submarine tech demo I wouldn't be adverse to playing them.

especially as you claim to program touchscreen based software

Claim? My site has programs I've made for UMPCs. You can see the evidence for yourself. It is not a mere claim.

Most of the issues I've found with DS games I wouldn't be able to get away with on a 7 inch screen let alone DS's. Hell, Intel sent me a 5 inch UMPC just so I could optimize for them. I was hired for my intuitive user interfaces for touchscreens!

How could you possibly judge the system instead of the developers?

While at first I felt the touchscreen was a perfect match for a handheld, devs didn't really use it very well.

I did blame the devs.

And it strikes me that you're being obtuse

And that's where we part ways. All respect I had for you was lost once you began resorting to direct insults. I was actually hoping you would end up arguing like a friend of mine who loves the DS, but knows how to argue respectfully. I even tried looking for the RedOctane Reload pedal for you.

I was more than happy to continue this discussion respectfully. I understood my opinion =/= everyone elses.

[crux]

I didn't intend to use any insults in my arguments, so don't go down that road as any way to discredit me. I actually meant obtuse as in difficult, because you've continuously used a few bad apples to discredit the abilities of the DS as a whole. The word apparently does have a negative connotation that I didn't fully realize, so I apologize if it came off as a way to undermine you. I also meant nothing of "claim," only insofar as that I didn't have time to check out your credentials.

It's the way you argue against the DS that bothers me - instead of railing against the games themselves and recognizing the value (or even the theoretic value) of many other games, you seem to be trying to discredit the entire platform and the ability of the system based on those bad apples. It would have been easy enough to simply say that the choice of many developer's implemenation of touch interfaces has left you disappointed, while making no judgment to the intrinsic value of the DS itself. Instead, you started off by negatively comparing it to a dissimilar portable system. My original point was to contend that a touch screen is not a novelty, but you've continued to insist that it is purely based on the bad apples.

[NeoTechni]

I didn't intend to use any insults in my arguments, so don't go down that road as any way to discredit me. I actually meant obtuse as in difficult, because you've continuously used a few bad apples to discredit the abilities of the DS as a whole. The word apparently does have a negative connotation that I didn't fully realize, so I apologize if it came off as a way to undermine you.

In which case I'm quite impressed then, and apologize as well.

My original point was to contend that a touch screen is not a novelty, but you've continued to insist that it is purely based on the bad apples.

More like, the good apples are so few and far between, that I would try them purely for the novelty value.

I await the game that would teach me a thing or 2 about touchscreen UI development.

[pepharytheworm]

If NeoTechni doesnt like the DS then let him not like it. The DS isnt for everybody. Why do people have to defend their favorite systems to the death or bash the ones they dont like. Just be glad for the millions that do and will continue too.
I am personally glad there are other systems I dont like, more competition means more games, more innovations, and more choices. unless they are ran out like sega. Oh I miss the glory days of SNES Vs. Genesis/Megadrive.

[Ivo]

I love my DS.

I think there are some games that really use the touch screen really well and wouldn't be possible in other systems (I haven't tried Trauma Center for Wii, but the DS one I played was very good), there are some concepts that also work well in the Wii (e.g. Warioware for DS and Warioware for Wii), and there are some that work well in a traditional system with buttons but still work better with touch screen (e.g. Advance Wars).

Then there is the two screens - there is also some stuff that only works with two screens, or works better with two screens.

I don't have a PSP (and I would eventually like one to play the nice exclusives) but for gaming on the go I really think the DS is the way to go. It is nice to have a larger screen, but the size matters when on the move. The clamshell design of the DS (and the SP before it) is a huge bonus as it automatically protects the screen(s), without requiring a case (although I also have a case), and I really, really like that closing the DS automatically suspends the game (as far as I know, works with nearly all DS games - I guess there may be some exceptions as judging from what happens with GBA games on it, it is not the hardware that does that by itself).

Ivo.

[NeoTechni]

Then there is the two screens - there is also some stuff that only works with two screens, or works better with two screens.

This is not part of the previous discussion, but an honest question.

What can you do on 2 small screens that couldn't be done on a larger one of equal or greater resolution? (Assuming proper aspect ratio to fit both on it)

[Ivo]

Then there is the two screens - there is also some stuff that only works with two screens, or works better with two screens.

This is not part of the previous discussion, but an honest question.

What can you do on 2 small screens that couldn't be done on a larger one of equal or greater resolution? (Assuming proper aspect ratio to fit both on it)

Well, with just a larger screen you could always divide it in half and effectively have 2 screens, possibly separated by a black line or something. So the majority of stuff you can do uniquely or better in the DS dual screens could be emulated in a large *vertical* screen "divided in half" by the software.
In practice, I doubt you will see any systems with vertical screens as horizontal seems to be rather dominant (and for good reasons). Certainly there are also games that work better with the PSP resolution (and if we talk about ports, there are some ports that can drive home the point of having mismatched resolutions - although in those cases the game was designed for another system).

The 2 DS screens are in practice enabling stuff that a large horizontal screen would do worse (e.g. are there even any games on the PSP that split the screen in half to continuously display a map or something like that? Plenty of DS games do that).

Furthermore, when you combine the 2 separate screens with the clamshell design of the DS you can actually get unique effects (perhaps often gimmicky) from specifically angling the 2 screens - you can try playing the DS game "Trace Memory" for some of this stuff...

SPOILERS - stop reading if you intend to play the game unspoiled.
There are a couple of puzzles in Trace Memory that take advantage of the clamshell double screens; one works as "stamping" what is on the top screen on the bottom screen to imprint the image by closing and opening the clamshell; the other involves angling the touch screen so that you can peek inside and see the mirror reflection of one screen on the other to piece together the solution. Those may be gimmicks and certainly is not a big deal, but I thought it was clever and certainly something you could not pull off with a single large screen of the PSP.
END SPOILERS

But really, many of the best games on the DS don't use the double screens or the touch functions that much if at all (i.e. just showing some status screen or something). It is a good system with good software, I am a big proponent on the clamshell design when it comes to handhelds - the SP had it without touch or dual screens (although on the SP the form factor wasn't comfortable, IMO - I prefer the more horizontal form factor of the original GBA - the DS merges an horizontal form and the clamshell).

As I said before, I'm not dissing on the PSP - I would like to have one, to play the good PSP games. And I'm glad to have a DS, to play the good DS games.

I'll put it this way: for someone with actual non-Wii consoles however, I think the DS will provide more variety than the PSP does. When it comes down to it, the PSP is mostly a portable playstation (2) without the 2nd analog stick (and certainly a great screen and powerful hardware). The DS is different enough that it is more than a combination of a portable SNES and a portable Wii (the touch screen is not quite the Wii controls, but in some games it is close enough). I don't think there is anything that you can put on a PSP that you wouldn't be able to put (probably better) on a PS2, 3 or Xbox 360 (if you know anything, I'm genuinely curious). There are some things you can put on a DS that you just won't get better anywhere else, currently (even the Wii - I haven't tried Wii's Trauma Center, but I bet the DS control is more appropriate).

Ivo.

[MrPopo]

Then there is the two screens - there is also some stuff that only works with two screens, or works better with two screens.

This is not part of the previous discussion, but an honest question.

What can you do on 2 small screens that couldn't be done on a larger one of equal or greater resolution? (Assuming proper aspect ratio to fit both on it)

From an aesthetic perspective if you simulated the DS two screen format by just dividing the same sized large screen in half it doesn't look as good. Hell, just look at the screenshots in a DS manual where they put both screens together. Something just feels a bit off to look at those, but the same shot with it being on the DS's two screens looks fine.

[NeoTechni]

(e.g. are there even any games on the PSP that split the screen in half to continuously display a map or something like that?

They usually have a radar/map in a corner, but yes there are some that do that. Radars/Maps don't tend to need much space.
You may want to see Metal Gear Ac!d 2's 3D/SolidEye mode, it splits the screen in half, and you get a cardboard divider you put on the PSP, and it simulates the VirtualBoy's 3D effect, only in color with actual 3D graphics. And without the blinding hangovers.

I don't think there is anything that you can put on a PSP that you wouldn't be able to put (probably better) on a PS2, 3 or Xbox 360

That's more of a "would pokemon be better on a console" kind of question.
There is the whole "LAN party in a pocket" thing. For example, GTA on PSP got 6 player multiplayer where the console versions (back then) had none (streaming environment games can't do splitscreen). And Ace Combat X got 4 players where only one of the PS2 versions had 2 player splitscreen. Consoles aren't as suited to that.

I buy portable versions of games for that reason over the console ones, especially since PSP/GBA handled them so well, and PSP has TV out.

Though I do have multiple other touchscreen portables. Tapwave Zodiac, 2 UMPCs, and an ipod touch. Though I'd never say the ipod is even close to the DS gaming wise, everything Nintendo did get right Apple got completely wrong. I pretty much use it for a crappy version of Time Crisis and 5 different versions of Solitaire.