Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[Niode]

So, should a game that allows the player the freedom to kill any character that exists not have women or scantily clad women in it because the player could potentially harm them? Or should they be in the game but special constraints be coded in to allow certain characters to not be killable? See how this starts to become absurd? There are some good examples of hostility directed at women in games and this isn't one of them.

This is a very fair point, and I think another example of where it is fair to critique the study of tropes as such. Your argument here has nothing to do with sex or gender per se, it has everything to do with whether we can talk about the trope of "women as background decoration" across various games in exactly the same way. In other words, I read your critique as asking: Is it fair to highlight women's presence as "background decoration" in a game where almost everything germane to the setting is provided as an interactive background decoration? The game tries to have everything, so of course those tropes will also be there! Right?

I think her rebuttal would be to ask what other representations of interactive background women exist in the Hitman games? Are there lots of businesswomen, stay-at-home moms, teachers, gangsters, youtube stars, etc. that are also part of the "background" of the game that would exist in these settings and can be interacted with in the same way? Are they presented in ways that are non-sexualized? Are there scantily clad male characters in the background that provide similar sexualized stereotypes for the player to interact with in the same way? If the answer to these questions is mostly "no" then I think her point still stands: a primary representation of women in these games is as an object, a background decoration that is often sexualized...and Hitman is another example of a game that provides this (even if the gameplay dynamics of that representation is a little different than some of the other games in her video).

But then to extend onto Jmustangs argument for every stripclub mission we are to have an alternative ladies-night stripclub mission where the 'background decorations' are swapped for scantily clad male 'props'. We're getting a little absurd here (Not that i'm against a gay strip club, I couldn't care less what the setting of the level is as long as the gameplay is rewarding - it could be magical dildo-land with dongs swinging-a-plenty for all I care) The Hitman games represent criminal activity, statistically criminals are predominantly hetero male. A strip club is not in the realms of magical fantasy land as a realistic setting for criminal operation, specifically an all girl strip club. Hitman is taking queues from film in this regard. Within the context of the game I don't see a problem with this. The point is not the tittilation of the player it's to reinforce the seediness of these criminals, that these people aren't nice people and to give extra justification for killing these marks. That's the problem I have here, it's taking things at face value without actually considering the context. Something that she does constantly in her videos. She cherry picks evidence that supports her argument without considering all facets of the source. That's not correct academic process. It's confirmation bias. You can't claim all men objectify women because you went to a strip club once and there were a bunch of men objectifying women. I don't see why Sarkeesian can do the exact same thing in her videos. She pushes this second-wave feminist agenda and then finds all the evidence that supports her specific agenda and ignores the counter arguments. She uses words like 'encourages' when the games do nothing of the sort. The game does not encourage negative interaction with any NPC, in fact the game actively punishes that kind of behaviour.

I will reiterate, I don't like the way she debates this topic, I'm not against the woman or any of that nonsense I don't give a shit what your gender is, I give no fucks. She isn't addressing the problems people have with her 'critique' and it's her argument which she puts across that is flawed.

[dsheinem]

But then to extend onto Jmustangs argument for every stripclub mission we are to have an alternative ladies-night stripclub mission where the 'background decorations' are swapped for scantily clad male 'props'.

No, but remember her question is "how are women represented in games"?

The Hitman games represent criminal activity, statistically criminals are predominantly hetero male. A strip club is not in the realms of magical fantasy land as a realistic setting for criminal operation, specifically an all girl strip club. Hitman is taking queues from film in this regard. Within the context of the game I don't see a problem with this.

I would imagine her critique applies the same way to film...it is the basis of something like the Bechtel test, for example, which highlights the minimal range of how women appear in film. The same can be said for how they appear in games.

That's the problem I have here, it's taking things at face value without actually considering the context. Something that she does constantly in her videos. She cherry picks evidence that supports her argument without considering all facets of the source. That's not correct academic process.

So you don't see value in identifying the recurrence of certain images/stereotypes/representations across a medium? That's the basis for a lot of criticism (well beyond games), and is useful if one is trying to trace historical trends in design, changes in public taste, etc,

She uses words like 'encourages' when the games do nothing of the sort. The game does not encourage negative interaction with any NPC, in fact the game actively punishes that kind of behaviour.

Again, and this is very important, her use of "encourages" refers to the way that the medium itself (not any specific game) encourages interaction with objects. The game may offer punishment for doing certain things, but since it is a game it encourages you to figure out what can and can't be done with the objects in it. This is why I was asking earlier about what kind of non-sexualized women can be interacted with. Her concern is that a major recurring representation of women in games as a while whole is as objects that are typically sexualized and against which violence can be committed.

[Niode]

But then to extend onto Jmustangs argument for every stripclub mission we are to have an alternative ladies-night stripclub mission where the 'background decorations' are swapped for scantily clad male 'props'.

No, but remember her question is "how are women represented in games"?

The Hitman games represent criminal activity, statistically criminals are predominantly hetero male. A strip club is not in the realms of magical fantasy land as a realistic setting for criminal operation, specifically an all girl strip club. Hitman is taking queues from film in this regard. Within the context of the game I don't see a problem with this.

I would imagine her critique applies the same way to film...it is the basis of something like the Bechtel test, for example, which highlights the minimal range of how women appear in film. The same can be said for how they appear in games.

That's the problem I have here, it's taking things at face value without actually considering the context. Something that she does constantly in her videos. She cherry picks evidence that supports her argument without considering all facets of the source. That's not correct academic process.

So you don't see value in identifying the recurrence of certain images/stereotypes/representations across a medium? That's the basis for a lot of criticism (well beyond games), and is useful if one is trying to trace historical trends in design, changes in public taste, etc,

She uses words like 'encourages' when the games do nothing of the sort. The game does not encourage negative interaction with any NPC, in fact the game actively punishes that kind of behaviour.

Again, and this is very important, her use of "encourages" refers to the way that the medium itself (not any specific game) encourages interaction with objects. The game may offer punishment for doing certain things, but since it is a game it encourages you to figure out what can and can't be done with the objects in it. This is why I was asking earlier about what kind of non-sexualized women can be interacted with. Her concern is that a major recurring representation of women in games as a while is as objects that are typically sexualized and against which violence can be committed.

That last bit is nonsense. If you can do it to a female npc then you can do it to a male npc. I don't see an issue with this. AT all. Where is the problem here? Do you want games to prevent you from interacting with one set of objects but not another because their appearance is feminine? It doesn't make any sense.

[dsheinem]

That last bit is nonsense. If you can do it to a female npc then you can do it to a male npc. I don't see an issue with this. AT all. Where is the problem here? Do you want games to prevent you from interacting with one set of objects but not another because their appearance is feminine? It doesn't make any sense.

Her concern is not that women aren't in games at all, it is how they are portrayed when they are there.

Yes, perhaps you can shoot a male or a female and plop them in a dumpster, but are the women characters the only "decorative" and interactive ones who are also sexualized in the game? Are there lots of other non-sexualized kinds of "decorative" women that you can shoot and dump as well? Are the "decorative" male characters in the game ever sexualized?

[dsheinem]

And, again, maybe in Hitman sexualization of women makes sense b/c IT'S THE MAFIA FFS! GAWD!

That's why she isn't looking at one game per se, but at the medium as a whole to see, across genres and types of stories, how are women represented in aggregate? What does "women in games" look like? What are the emergent similarities/tropes?

[Opa Opa]

It would be different to explore tropes and point them out, etc. but her series is entitled Tropes versus Women in videogames; not Tropes in video games.

She's clearly against some portrayals of women -which is fine (there are some examples I myself don't like)- but don't take things out of context. Which I believe is the key issue that everyone has against her.

[dsheinem]

It would be different to explore tropes and point them out, etc. but her series is entitled Tropes versus Women in videogames; not Tropes in video games.

She's clearly against some portrayals of women -which is fine (there are some examples I myself don't like)- but don't take things out of context. Which I believe is the key issue that everyone has against her.

As you explain, the title is because she is focusing on those tropes that are most specifically about women. Typically, these are tropes that demean or marginalize, that objectify or exclude (and are thus "versus" women). She explores these, points them out, and offers a feminist perspective on their power/influence in both game culture and the world at large . She isn't looking at all tropes b/c she isn't interested in all of them, nor does she need to be.

I think it is fair to say that game criticism has historically looked at and passed judgement on other kinds of tropes (e.g. the amnesiac adolescent, the deranged scientist, the ill-defined military grunt, etc.) and that doing so raises awareness of trends in gaming that are alternately "played out," "cliche," "useful," "appropriate," "essential," "outdated," etc. Like Anita, I would guess that most critics hope that their voice guides purchase decisions by consumers and design choices by creators.

[Exhuminator]

don't take things out of context. Which I believe is the key issue that everyone has against her.

That's the issue I have at least. For example... I could take issue with Conan the 2007 video game that it's just some buff dude in a loin cloth and it diminishes men as a masculine raging sex death machine... but that would be taking things out of context. So by that same token, I don't take issue with Golden Axe: Beast Rider because the protagonist there is a female barbarian equally as ill-dressed as Conan is in his game. She's no more or less a sex object as Conan was. So if I took issue in that case, it would be hypocritical. But someone like miss Anita would take issue with Beast Rider's female warrior's attire, thus ignoring context, and I find that sort of non-logic to be irritating.

Certainly I have seen females portrayed as non-sexual strong protagonists in video games since the early 80s. It's not like every video game says lol boobs 'n' butt lol that's all women are good for lol. Now I will admit that the genre I have seen women portrayed most strongly in are adventure games. That may be because the adventure game genre is more popular with women players than say the third person shooter genre. Also, female game designers are more prominent in the adventure game genre as well.

Now have I ever seen females in video games treated as simple sex objects? Yes. Have I seen the same thing in movies, comic books, novels, etc.? Yes! Do I still see this in modern mediums across the spectrum? Yes!! So why would video games be immune to this societal commonality? That's why I was saying in the other thread that it's a society thing, not simply a video game thing. "People as nothing but pure sex objects is wrong" as a social ideal has to change in society outside artistic mediums first, before it trickles down as an influence into said mediums as the norm. Even if somehow games totally got away from this, films, novels, comics, and uh, booty rap lyrics, would still not be immune. And society at large would remain unchanged.

[Niode]

Exhuminator:



Somebody who finally gets it.

[Jmustang1968]

I would say the trope more so lies in with games, and especially movies, setting up criminal enterprises in a strip club or night club. This has some statistical relevance to real life, as these locations often are often associated with criminal activity.

But once there, the women are often represented as being repressed by the antagonist or criminal which helps to show he is a bad guy by portraying him as a misogynist and supporting such as negative behavior.

But she flips this on its head. Just because the strippers exist in the game and the game allows you to kill anyone, it is suddenly promoting violence towards women, when in fact it is the opposite.